Shotguns with screw in chokes.... exceed the 20mm so now prohibited????

Besides the legislation being a placebo for the unthinking and emotional based individuals to get them to vote for them....
Shotguns with screw in chokes.... exceed the 20mm so now prohibited????




https://www.csaaa.org/blair-bans-12-...unting-rifles/
The Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association (CSAAA) and the Canadian Shooting Sports Association (CSSA) demand the immediate withdrawal of the flawed Order in Council.


Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Minister Bill Blair looked Canadian gun owners in the eye last Friday and said they would not take guns suitable for hunting away from us.

Minister Blair is either too inept to comprehend the scope of his regulations…or he lied to the Government and Canadians.

In the legal opinion of our firearms legal team – headed by Edward Burlew L.L.B., one of the foremost experts in Canadian firearms law – Blair banned almost every modern 12-gauge and 10-gauge shotgun in Canada with removable chokes because they exceed the maximum bore diameter of 20 mm as defined in SOR/2020-96.

It is estimated there 1.5 – 2 million of these common hunting firearms in Canada.

As well, many large bore hunting rifles – some more than 100 years old and valued at more than $100,000 have become prohibited. None of these firearms are semi-automatic or “military style.” They encompass common bolt-action rifles such as the .460 Weatherby, break-open single and double rifles. These firearms are captured because the powerful cartridges they shoot – designed to humanely dispatch the largest game animals. PURE hunting rifles.

Canada’s firearms industry body, the CSAAA, is advising retailers to stop sales of “large hunting calibre, non semi-automatic rifles such as the Weatherby Mark V .460 as these rifles exceed the 10,000 Joules energy restriction.





Legal opinion
https://www.csaaa.org/wp-content/upl...e-shotguns.pdf

Prohibited? Need new barrels?

Note page 6 and 7.

What the ?????

I just posted the same. Yes they are.

Trap, skeet, target, IPSC, Duck hunters, Deer hunters, Turkey hunters, all Canadian firearms owners... you probably have a 12 gauge shotgun! Any 10 guage and 12 guage with choke is more than 20mm and on the ban / prohibited list.

So my old Mossberg 12A with adjustable choke is banned it is greater than 20 mm I believe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

I just posted the same. Yes they are.

Trap, skeet, target, IPSC, Duck hunters, Deer hunters, Turkey hunters, all Canadian firearms owners... you probably have a 12 gauge shotgun! Any 10 guage and 12 guage with choke is more than 20mm and on the ban / prohibited list.

---

Well the one pictured here sure does...
https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ab&oe=5ED719F3

I wondered about that 20mm and it's purpose ... could it be this? (Australia)
https://www.theage.com.au/interactiv...tos/crush3.jpg

So much for going Turkey hunting today. I could have gone to jail.

This imbecile isn't fit to run a lemonade stand, let alone a country.

This news is being reported everywhere, so seems to be ligit. Yup pretty much all firearms are now banned in Canada.

Lol awesome. I feel safer now

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

So I assume 10 gauge are restricted also. and some muzzle loaders.

So my 16 gauges just went up in value

Relax.......the sky is not falling

I think that this is going to be a stretch. The Bore is measured from 8-10" into the barrel not at the muzzle end of the shotgun barrel because that diameter will differ depending on the choke of the gun (which is completely different than measuring a bore of a shotgun barrel). Plus shotgun barrels that are threaded for chokes should have a choke in the barrel and never shot without a choke installed - so why would you measure it without a choke installed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pbCnqkLjUE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Relax.......the sky is not falling

I think that this is going to be a stretch. The Bore is measured from 8-10" into the barrel not at the muzzle end of the shotgun barrel because that diameter will differ depending on the choke of the gun (which is completely different than measuring a bore of a shotgun barrel). Plus shotgun barrels that are threaded for chokes should have a choke in the barrel and never shot without a choke installed - so why would you measure it without a choke installed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pbCnqkLjUE

---

Try reading page 6 and 7 of the legal opinion, a video on gun smithing also showing a fixed choke.... not relevant!

Quote:

---

Legal opinion
https://www.csaaa.org/wp-content/upl...e-shotguns.pdf

---

The picture here shows they are correct....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

Well the one pictured here sure does...
https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ab&oe=5ED719F3

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Relax.......the sky is not falling

I think that this is going to be a stretch. The Bore is measured from 8-10" into the barrel not at the muzzle end of the shotgun barrel because that diameter will differ depending on the choke of the gun (which is completely different than measuring a bore of a shotgun barrel). Plus shotgun barrels that are threaded for chokes should have a choke in the barrel and never shot without a choke installed - so why would you measure it without a choke installed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pbCnqkLjUE

---

Hopefully,you're right. The way this legislation appears,we really need to apply the law of unintended consequences. For the time being,we need to exercise extreme caution. There's always the chance of running across a bureaucratic sychophant that will go out of their way to be an officious moron.

I’m not stopping hunting with my 12...

CSSA is advising store to stop selling 12 and 10 guage shotguns

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Relax.......the sky is not falling

I think that this is going to be a stretch. The Bore is measured from 8-10" into the barrel not at the muzzle end of the shotgun barrel because that diameter will differ depending on the choke of the gun (which is completely different than measuring a bore of a shotgun barrel). Plus shotgun barrels that are threaded for chokes should have a choke in the barrel and never shot without a choke installed - so why would you measure it without a choke installed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pbCnqkLjUE

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greatwhite

CSSA is advising store to stop selling 12 and 10 guage shotguns

---

I think this is just one of many screwups by the village idiot and his liar (Gillys hero) liar Blair...!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greatwhite

CSSA is advising store to stop selling 12 and 10 guage shotguns

---

Safe advise... if it wasn't their intention and they fix it... no problem (as far as the shotguns... it is still knee jerk b.s. though)

IF it was their intention or they decide to exploit it for ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

I wondered about that 20mm and it's purpose ... could it be this? (Australia)
https://www.theage.com.au/interactiv...tos/crush3.jpg

---

Well suddenly any store selling a shotgun faces criminal charges, fines etc. and it will essentially shut down the firearm marketplace with a sledge hammer.... deliberate and accomplished in 2 years... before the next election IF the Bloc and NDP keep them afloat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

I think this is just one of many screwups by the village idiot and his liar (Gillys hero) liar Blair...!!

---

I agree 100% - this is an oversight.........I'm continuing to hunt with mine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

Try reading page 6 and 7 of the legal opinion, a video on gun smithing also showing a fixed choke.... not relevant!




The picture here shows they are correct....

---

......and the picture you are referencing, you saw that picture on the internet right..........and do you believe everything you see and read on the internet - I sure hope not!!

You said it best.......the CSSA piece is a legal opinion. They are a just special interest group who's sole purpose is to promote the sports shooting industry. Until I receive anything in writing, I am taking all these 'opinions' as pure rumor and will continue to go about my business as normal. I will continue to transporting and hunt with my 12GA shotgun.

The chances of actually being charged, ending up in jail, paying to fight the charge. Atleast in the near future.

Are slim, almost none. “Never say never”.

I believe it’s because the village idiot who shouldn’t be in charge of a lemonade stand. Also chose a career policition who should never have been in charge of the MTPS ( G20, shortcomings fighting crime, though not entirely his fault ) to be in charge of “public safety” and our borders. BB and if he’s an air soft BB, is the last anyone should have selected..

And this is just a colossal screw up. But that happens when a man that can’t think his way out of a wet paper bag is in charge, and the 2nd man in charge isn’t much better.

I think this is about CSSA finding a loophole to challenge the list. A good idea, too!
The true bore of a 10 gauge is still under 20 mm; the muzzle becomes more than 20 mm once you remove the choke, but that does not change the bore size.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

I’m not stopping hunting with my 12...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

I agree 100% - this is an oversight.........I'm continuing to hunt with mine.

---

Br friggin' careful doing that until either the law is amended or allowed to stand. We're dealing with Liberal appointed Judges and law enforcement personnel with a personal anti-gun agenda. Do you really want to be a test case and possibly lose? I hope the first guys that gets busted are Liberal voters and it costs them $100-200K to fight it.

Everything I’ve read has said simply. Measure the end of your choke.

So as long as I identify as a native I’m ok right


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I do believe this is just an utter brainfart. That just utterly emphasizes why they shouldn’t be in charge of anything. If anything for us, it’s a gift. They’ve given us a gift. To show the public, the undecided they don’t know what they are doing. Village idiots indeed.

I will be hunting Turkey with my bow from now till close. No diferent from Sunday hunting in places. And these days everyday is a Sunday.

Chances are slim almost none. But there are plenty of examples where cops who get up on the wrong side bed, have a hard on for something. Even COs that have charged people for being 1mm over the slot....

Me. As Trimmer said. I don’t feel like being the canary. That is a hefty price tag.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Everything I’ve read has said simply. Measure the end of your choke.

---

For christ sake guys.......stop the fear mongering. Simply put if that was the case there would be all kinds of warnings about this - shotguns were not listed in any way, shape, or form. This came from CSSA as a tacit to show how incompetent the Liberals are when they put this list together last week - good on them but it is not going to stop me from enjoying my hunts. The hunting reg's state you can use a 12GA, I have not been formally told not to use a 12GA so I will continue to do so.

But tell me this.......all gun manufacturers clearly state in their owners manuals NOT to shoot your shotgun without choke installed. So then why would you measure your bore without one installed. How can you accurately measure the bore of a shotgun when before you shoot it you will need to install a choke? Just google bore measurement tools and you will see the bore micrometers used by gunsmiths (not the feeler gauges used by hacks) but the proper tools for professionals. They are designed to be installed 6-8" into the barrel.

If you still want to believe it that is fine with me, go ahead. Lock up your gun, sit and stew - I'm going hunting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashes1

So as long as I identify as a native I’m ok right


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

That SHOULD work.... dressing up and identifying as a chief or a strutting turkey, not likely? (no offence intended except to PM chief black face, but he might get away with it though...)
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/4074788/th...EAU-570.jpg?16
... but remember that guy's "truth" ??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY3I2ewuxQ0

... and looking at ethics, budgets, SNC, Jody W.R., Admiral Norman etc. etc. etc. .... if you can borrow a 16 or 20 ....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

If you still want to believe it that is fine with me, go ahead. Lock up your gun, sit and stew - I'm going hunting

---

No offence... I'll take the warning of a firearms lawyer, good luck... legal and hunting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trimmer21

Br friggin' careful doing that until either the law is amended or allowed to stand. We're dealing with Liberal appointed Judges and law enforcement personnel with a personal anti-gun agenda. Do you really want to be a test case and possibly lose? I hope the first guys that gets busted are Liberal voters and it costs them $100-200K to fight it.

---

"HEY GILROY, Ya want to go hunt turkeys "..

4100

Did I not just say a brainfart? Which can (does) translate to poorly worded legalese. I am assuming you’ve signed off on legal contracts. Where everything is nuanced, and every single word....matters?

Does that not demonstrate, they don’t know what they are doing? Given the topic, the S storm they have known from day 1 ( 5 years ago), and is why until now....the wedge this would create.

You don’t make those kinds of mistakes. This “legislation” should have been airtight, no loose bolts.

It’s a gift to us. And that to.....

I also said slim to none. Meaning I think the odds are greater I’ll be shot by another turkey hunter or bolt of lighting.

If you want to chance it. Your allowed to. I won’t be

And fact of the matter is. I prefer hunting Turkey with my bow anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

That SHOULD work.... dressing up and identifying as a chief or a strutting turkey, not likely? (no offence intended except to PM chief black face, but he might get away with it though...)
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/4074788/th...EAU-570.jpg?16
... but remember that guy's "truth" ??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY3I2ewuxQ0

... and looking at ethics, budgets, SNC, Jody W.R., Admiral Norman etc. etc. etc. .... if you can borrow a 16 or 20 ....



No offence... I'll take the warning of a firearms lawyer, good luck... legal and hunting.

---

Asked why he was called walking eagle, and they replied bull sh it can't fly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trimmer21

Br friggin' careful doing that until either the law is amended or allowed to stand. We're dealing with Liberal appointed Judges and law enforcement personnel with a personal anti-gun agenda. Do you really want to be a test case and possibly lose? I hope the first guys that gets busted are Liberal voters and it costs them $100-200K to fight it.

---

It's ok with covid 19 happening the are not really arresting anyone lol. 2 men on April 22nd have a promise to appear in the coming months for having 28 kilos of opium lol. A man in the kawarthas was let go before he was transported to the hospital after he flipped his car car into a store at 150 pm. From a dui

I wouldn't worry about going Turkey hunting with the gun you have used forever. By the time the back log of court cases it it should all be resolved and long forgotten in the court system [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

For christ sake guys.......stop the fear mongering. Simply put if that was the case there would be all kinds of warnings about this - shotguns were not listed in any way, shape, or form. This came from CSSA as a tacit to show how incompetent the Liberals are when they put this list together last week - good on them but it is not going to stop me from enjoying my hunts. The hunting reg's state you can use a 12GA, I have not been formally told not to use a 12GA so I will continue to do so.

But tell me this.......all gun manufacturers clearly state in their owners manuals NOT to shoot your shotgun without choke installed. So then why would you measure your bore without one installed. How can you accurately measure the bore of a shotgun when before you shoot it you will need to install a choke? Just google bore measurement tools and you will see the bore micrometers used by gunsmiths (not the feeler gauges used by hacks) but the proper tools for professionals. They are designed to be installed 6-8" into the barrel.

If you still want to believe it that is fine with me, go ahead. Lock up your gun, sit and stew - I'm going hunting

---

Regulators measured the barrels,not people who know what they're doing. That doesn't help us,now,because the laws have already been written,so,"fear mongering" doesn't enter into it at this point. This all needs clarification and amendment,but,as it stands right now,you.me,everyone with a 12ga shotgun or larger are in violation of FEDERAL law,never mind what PROVINCIAL regulations say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

"HEY GILROY, Ya want to go hunt turkeys "..

---

Roflmfao

If shotgun has extended chokes think I would leave them in the safe flush chokes. Scary enough Trudeau and Billy numbnutts would love to catch you I’m sure

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by js4fn

If shotgun has extended chokes think I would leave them in the safe flush chokes. Scary enough Trudeau and Billy numbnutts would love to catch you I’m sure

---

What’s the difference? It’s the bore size not the barrel length.

Remember the abuses some cops did with the new drinking and driving legislations. Are you comfortable handing LEO or CO a tool to fine you?
This just proves that the law was written too fast to cash in on the N.S. horror. Evidenced based my @rse. . This is why laws need to be put through debate in Parliament with Senate scrutiny. They didn’t do that because they didn’t want the scrutiny and are basically corrupt cowards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trimmer21

Regulators measured the barrels,not people who know what they're doing. That doesn't help us,now,because the laws have already been written,so,"fear mongering" doesn't enter into it at this point. This all needs clarification and amendment,but,as it stands right now,you.me,everyone with a 12ga shotgun or larger are in violation of FEDERAL law,never mind what PROVINCIAL regulations say.

---

Who are the regulators that measured the barrels? CSSA is NOT a regulator........they are a special interest group. They regulate squat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Relax.......the sky is not falling

I think that this is going to be a stretch. The Bore is measured from 8-10" into the barrel not at the muzzle end of the shotgun barrel because that diameter will differ depending on the choke of the gun (which is completely different than measuring a bore of a shotgun barrel). Plus shotgun barrels that are threaded for chokes should have a choke in the barrel and never shot without a choke installed - so why would you measure it without a choke installed?

---

I took my 12 gauges that are fitted for choke tubes, pulled the chokes and measured the bore. All under 20mm when measured thread to thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badenoch

I took my 12 gauges that are fitted for choke tubes, pulled the chokes and measured the bore. All under 20mm when measured thread to thread.

---

that would count as the lands not the groove/bore diameter.
A 270 has lands that measure. 270 of an inch, but the grooves give a bore diameter of .275 of an inch..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

What’s the difference? It’s the bore size not the barrel length.

---

Extended choke if they do the forensic measure barrel length choke is taken out

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Who are the regulators that measured the barrels? CSSA is NOT a regulator........they are a special interest group. They regulate squat.

---

Ed Burlew interpreted the law as legal opinion written by government hacks. Your assertion about CSSA is ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by js4fn

Extended choke if they do the forensic measure barrel length choke is taken out

---

I agree.... however, we are talking about bore size not barrel length.....

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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

I agree.... however, we are talking about bore size not barrel length.....

---

And while choke is out let’s measure the bore for kicks and giggles oh 20.2mm

Let's see..... since some seems to not notice page 6 and 7 of the opinion that specifies the size... how about another place. In the opinion he talk about a diameter of .814 which exceeds the 20mm and he lists models and diameters and concludes with ...

https://www.csaaa.org/wp-content/upl...e-shotguns.pdf
"In my opinion 12 gauge shotgun with the screw in systems for use of "Winchoke", "Browning Invector", and "Beretta Optima and Optima Plus" are prohibited under the definition in Section 9 of SOR 2020/96

These noted barrel systems are presently prohibited firearms as defined in SOR 2020/96.
" - Edward L. Burlew LL.B.

So to validate it I found a page for installing a Winchoke...
https://ktgunsmith.com/choketube.htm

... now let's look at the tool and it's cut.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...prod25287.aspx
SPECS: 12 gauge has .814"-32 tpi.

... now convert .814 ... 20.6756 .... ooops .....

Oh good it comes in a 20ga too ... https://www.stoegerindustries.com/up...-field-shotgun
or maybe an over under ... https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-mallar...5-choke-tubes/

for a double I like double triggers. :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

For christ sake guys.......stop the fear mongering. Simply put if that was the case there would be all kinds of warnings about this - shotguns were not listed in any way, shape, or form. This came from CSSA as a tacit to show how incompetent the Liberals are when they put this list together last week - good on them but it is not going to stop me from enjoying my hunts. The hunting reg's state you can use a 12GA, I have not been formally told not to use a 12GA so I will continue to do so.

But tell me this.......all gun manufacturers clearly state in their owners manuals NOT to shoot your shotgun without choke installed. So then why would you measure your bore without one installed. How can you accurately measure the bore of a shotgun when before you shoot it you will need to install a choke? Just google bore measurement tools and you will see the bore micrometers used by gunsmiths (not the feeler gauges used by hacks) but the proper tools for professionals. They are designed to be installed 6-8" into the barrel.

If you still want to believe it that is fine with me, go ahead. Lock up your gun, sit and stew - I'm going hunting

---

I’ll take the lawyers advice thanks.

He is no fool.

So I hack 3" off my barrel and I'm good to go? Lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SongDog

So I hack 3" off my barrel and I'm good to go? Lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

---

Actually in this fudged up piece of legislation.... that would work... then see if you can get a barrel with a fixed choke size for what you hunt or shoot. Idiotic isn't it!
or really really sneaky ... shops selling prohibited firearms.... instant loss of licence etc.

But there is 2 years and this gov't likely would have fallen if not for COVID and even now they won't floor a budget that might get a non confidence vote ... and atleast 1 of the candidates for Conservatives already said they would scrap it.

The bores on my shotgun range between 18.4 and 18.6 as proofed. Good enough for me.

I’m kind of chuckling, reading everyone’s interpretation of what the law is. At this very second....

Armies of lawyers are paid big bucks to argue the same, over the smallest technicality , misplaced comma, which can change the meaning of a sentence in court....

I’m going to just copy/paste what I am now regurgitating on FB in response to comments on my wall/others that are discussing it.

Question:
Does it matter “right now”

Terry.
This wasn’t rushed. They’ve been working on it for 5 years.... some of you, I’m sure either proof contracts, or in my case, lengthy legal documents. After I checked them, my boss the head of North America, read it, signed it. It’s his head, if there’s the smallest problem.
***
It’s nothing more than monumentally embarrassing brainfart. Poorly worded legalese.

However.
Given the topic, the OIC, the storm they knew this would create, the wedge they knew this would create. The ramifications to them and us. The 5 years they’ve been working on it. 5 years waiting for what they thought was the right time.

You don’t make those kinds of mistakes. This legislation should have been airtight, no loose bolts. I have proofed many legal documents making sure every i was dotted and t crossed. Before anyone signed off on it.

They are not fit. Their experts? How the F did they miss this. Bill Blair? This demonstrates that beyond reasonable doubt. They have given us a gift.

Village idiot indeed
*****

Guys, people on this forum argued for years whether taking pictures of out of season fish. “Immediately released without harm”. Legal or not legal. Could we be fined.

The letter of the law, and eventually COs chimed in....yes we can be charged

Not the point.
Imo

They'll keep the 12ga technicality in their back pocket until someone gets threatened with one. Then they'll throw the prohib card.

I heard RCMP are getting calipers as standard kit now...

Just saw this on FB.

Much closer to what we (imo) should be focusing on.

The Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights (CCFR) is calling for the immediate removal of Minister Bill Blair from the Public Safety file.

Following a reading of yesterday’s regulation banning a swath of semi-automatic firearms and a briefing with officials from Public Safety, CBSA, Global Affairs, RCMP and the Department of Justice, it was made abundantly clear that the regulations were crafted in haste, and that the government has neither planned nor formulated the rest of the legislation required to implement their hastily crafted policy. As a result, the regulation is both flawed and dangerous.

During the briefing the government could not answer simple questions about the methods used for selection, why bolt action firearms were included on the list, why some shotguns are caught in the bore diameter restrictions, why some rimfire firearms are listed contrary to the selection criteria, and on and on. They also stated that the government, on behalf of the Governor in Council, has deemed the list of firearms banned as “not suitable for hunting or sport shooting”, but simultaneously provided an exemption for indigenous owners for the purpose of hunting. Further, this is contrary to the decades-long history of these very firearms being safely used for hunting and sport shooting.
This entire regulation bears the mark of an irrational process done in haste, and it divides Canadians.

The CCFR further noted that some of the firearms listed in the regulation that are classified as prohibited have exactly the same specifications as other firearms not on the list. This is entirely random and proves without doubt, that the choices made were entirely political in nature. That is not a proper basis for legislation in a democracy.

There are also flaws in that no consideration has been given to firearm owners who may move residency within the amnesty period, since transporting of these prohibited firearms is not permitted.

The level of incompetence in this act by the Liberal government is astounding. As a result, we feel the Prime Minister and Canadians have been grossly under-served by the Minister and call for his immediate removal from over-seeing this process, and for the repealing of this regulation in order to consult technical experts.

In the interim, the CCFR recommends that Canadian firearm owners retain their firearms and NOT turn them in to the government. This deeply flawed process must be reversed immediately. Consultations with legal experts are ongoing.

And we agree, Blair needs to go!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Relax.......the sky is not falling

I think that this is going to be a stretch. The Bore is measured from 8-10" into the barrel not at the muzzle end of the shotgun barrel because that diameter will differ depending on the choke of the gun (which is completely different than measuring a bore of a shotgun barrel). Plus shotgun barrels that are threaded for chokes should have a choke in the barrel and never shot without a choke installed - so why would you measure it without a choke installed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pbCnqkLjUE

---

Good question ! Answer: So they can ban it. Since they weren't very forth coming about the firearms the N.S. shooter used beyond the fact that one was a shotgun. It may have been a 12 gauge with a screw in choke. That way come election time they have a case history to justify their use of the OIC, because it was necessary to get such guns out of the public domain..

You don't stop hunting because you grow old. You grow old because you stop hunting.
- Gun Nut

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...bc3f85513f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well there’s a huge surprise.
:)

Whether they are in full blown damage control or not

immaterial.
Not for something like this.

In Australia the 12 gage is a prohibited weapon.
As stated in a a post who ever shared the shot gun massacre. It clearly states that it was a prohibited firearm. Not sure why we would want laws like that here in Canada.


We wanted our laws like Australia and new Zealand right well

What's the problem?.

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Gotta shoot your deer now with a 410 [emoji8]

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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishfood

In Australia the 12 gage is a prohibited weapon.

---

I don’t think that is true. I think you can have a double barrel 12ga

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dilly

I don’t think that is true. I think you can have a double barrel 12ga

---

I was just going by the article it says in the ban of rapidl fire rifles and shot guns.

Thought I seen something about it being prohibited maybe it was the present one here in NS
But I guess I just seen shotgun bans mixed up lol.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/05/austr...ntl/index.html

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e01857b1b2.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by petebow89

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...bc3f85513f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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They should correct the misunderstanding to the population in a clear open-wide statement, not to the CSSA behind closed doors

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishfood

I was just going by the article it says in the ban of rapidl fire rifles and shot guns.

Thought I seen something about it being prohibited maybe it was the present one here in NS
But I guess I just seen shotgun bans mixed up lol.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/05/austr...ntl/index.html

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e01857b1b2.jpg

---

In Austrailia pump shotguns are illegal, not the gauge.

Lever actions are not though, hence why all the lever action shotguns have come out again.

12 gauges aren't banned in Australia. Pump shotguns are still legal there although ownership of them is restricted to certain groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_of_Australia

Did Billy shutter his Twitter

Guys

Using Australia, New Zealand, the Uk as models of success for banning weapons. Or for any comparative uses.

Just junk.

It’s an Apples to rotten vegetable comparison. They aren’t even both fruit.

All of the above are small islands half way around the world. Don’t share a border with the Wild West. Their “realities” are night and day, from ours. And I’m not even sure. If what they hunt, how they hunt are close enough?

Many people here use slug guns for deer and bear. Do they have anything like Bear there?
And I have witnessed first hand, why semi auto Shotguns are far superior to pump or other.

just ask a hunter that’s had to track a wounded Bear, through thick brush. There’s even some dead hunters you can ask....

This is a picture from Australia looks like alot of hunting guns to me lol.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...630004eb85.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badenoch

12 gauges aren't banned in Australia. Pump shotguns are still legal there although ownership of them is restricted to certain groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_of_Australia

---

In the link I provided said shotguns were banned. I see they are reduced to single shots same as some of the rifles they are single shots .

If you want I can post the link here is a screenshot says the gunman used a banned weapon it takes you to the link I posted the man used a 12 gage shotgun that is banned in Australia. In june 2019 a man used a banned gun it was a 12 gage pump action shotgun.

I will post the link too tho for ya. https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...tralia-and-ve/https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...70e5920995.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

.........this means squat because this is NOT Australia or NZ. I'm posting bc these are the facts - I am am tired of listening to everyone's assumptions that the sky is falling.

Firearms categories
The National Firearm Agreement defines categories of firearms, with different levels of control for each, as follows:.

Category A
Rimfire rifles (not semi-automatic), shotguns (not pump-action, semi-automatic, or lever-action)[15], air rifles including semi-automatic, and paintball guns.
Category B
Centrefire rifles including bolt action, pump action and lever action (not semi-automatic), muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901 and lever-action shotguns with a magazine capacity of up to 5 rounds.[15]
Category C
Pump-action or self-loading shotguns having a magazine capacity of 5 or fewer rounds and semi-automatic rimfire rifles up to 10 rounds. Primary producers, farm workers, firearm dealers, firearm safety officers, collectors and clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.
Category D
All self-loading centrefire rifles, pump-action or self-loading or lever-action [15]shotguns that have a magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds, semi-automatic rimfire rifles over 10 rounds, are restricted to government agencies, occupational shooters and primary producers.
Category H
Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. This class is available to target shooters and certain security guards whose job requires possession of a firearm. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of 6 months using club handguns, after which they may apply for a permit. A minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun and be a paid-up member of an approved pistol club.[16] Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45 calibre, currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 SIG, handguns that meet the IPSC rules, larger calibres such as .45 were approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests in Australia in 2014, however only in Victoria so far.[17] Barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols; magazines are restricted to 10 rounds.
Category R/E
Restricted weapons include military weapons such as machine guns, rocket launchers, full automatic self loading rifles, flame-throwers and anti-tank guns.
Certain antique firearms (generally muzzle loading black powder flintlock firearms manufactured before 1 January 1901) can in some states be legally held without a licence.[18] In other states they are subject to the same requirements as modern firearms.[19]

Certain states, firearms which "substantially duplicates [military-style rifles] in design, function or appearance."[20][21]The implication of this is that any firearm, regardless of its action, may be reclassified into Category D or prohibited if it externally resembles an assault rifle.[22][23]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Guys

All of the above are small islands half way around the world. Don’t share a border with the Wild West. Their “realities” are night and day, from ours.

---

100% spot on !!

Interesting article
https://globalnews.ca/news/6902912/j...s-erin-otoole/

Here's also a crazy comment.. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/han...mise-1.5238111

re: Bill Blair comments on proposed handgun ban ...

He signalled that he was in favour of a national ban on assault-style weapons, but not handguns, citing both the high cost of compensating owners — an estimated $1.5 billion to $2 billion — and the challenge of making it work.
"It would not, in my opinion, be perhaps the most effective measure in restricting the access that criminals would have to such weapons, because we'd still have a problem with them being smuggled across the border," the former Toronto police chief told the Globe and Mail.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...ers%5B0%5D=3.1

The other thread has almost run its coarse so will post this here.

Want more proof Blair is a conniving sack of S, that CANNOT be trusted?

4100
For the most part I agree with you. The liberals for time immortal have PROVEN to be untrustworthy. Bill Blair has proven it as well. If nothing remember the G20.....

I will be sharing this on facebook. I need to think about the right hook. Gun owners will read it. The people we need reading stuff?

And so what if, we, start fighting fire with Fire a bit. Bend things a little. They’ve done it for years!

Here’s the article. Read it, from his own bloody playbook. How to win the PR battle. Because if you don’t sell the “silent” unknowledgable majority. it’s lost.

But instead of having a plan to justify buying scary ARs....how do you ban them


he’s a scheming, sack of S. A career politician. That has zero credibility. That is not “fear mongering” and cannot be ignored.
https://mydigitalpublication.com/pub...cle_id=2655529

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

The other thread has almost run its coarse so will post this here.

Want more proof Blair is a conniving sack of S, that CANNOT be trusted?

4100
For the most part I agree with you. The liberals for time immortal have PROVEN to be untrustworthy. Bill Blair has proven it as well. If nothing remember the G20.....

I will be sharing this on facebook. I need to think about the right hook. Gun owners will read it. The people we need reading stuff?

And so what if, we, start fighting fire with Fire a bit. Bend things a little. They’ve done it for years!

Here’s the article. Read it, from his own bloody playbook. How to win the PR battle. Because if you don’t sell the “silent” unknowledgable majority. it’s lost.

But instead of having a plan to justify buying scary ARs....how do you ban them


he’s a scheming, sack of S. A career politician. That has zero credibility. That is not “fear mongering” and cannot be ignored.
https://mydigitalpublication.com/pub...cle_id=2655529

---

The article posted was written by Dave Brown, not Liar Blair. Liar Blair isn’t fit to clean Dave’s boots !!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Relax.......the sky is not falling

I think that this is going to be a stretch. The Bore is measured from 8-10" into the barrel not at the muzzle end of the shotgun barrel because that diameter will differ depending on the choke of the gun (which is completely different than measuring a bore of a shotgun barrel). Plus shotgun barrels that are threaded for chokes should have a choke in the barrel and never shot without a choke installed - so why would you measure it without a choke installed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pbCnqkLjUE

---

That’s a good point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Just called the rcmp and the person said the 20mm does not apply to shotguns apparently there is something coming out to reflect this . I talked to the firearm officer

Really none of these guns should be banned as they are not so called assault rifles. They are just dressed up to look that way. It's like taking a cavalier and giving it a fancy paint job and pretending it will go faster.

But a few on here truly believe that a dressed up gun becomes super powerful the moment you put a military looking stock on it and they pretty much admit they believe that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overtheir

Just called the rcmp and the person said the 20mm does not apply to shotguns apparently there is something coming out to reflect this . I talked to the firearm officer

---

So I am thinking by Liberal definition if I put military stocks on all my guns they become super powerful??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

The article posted was written by Dave Brown, not Liar Blair. Liar Blair isn’t fit to clean Dave’s boots !!

---

Rick to be clear. I’m not criticizing the author. I actually thought it was well written, and on point.

Win the PR battle, because they the silent unknowledgeable public fears them. Because if you don’t win the PR battle..and control the narrative in the press...

Don’t use the word Assault
Don’t say anything that the public might wince...


Do call it a carbine
Do tell them they aren’t military weapons.No such thing.
Do tell them their main selling points. Accuracy, durability, serviceability.

He, Liar Blair, or pea shooter BB. Was the cheif of police and would be well aware of all Dave’s points, counselling, strategy.

Funny how he sings an utterly different tune when wanting to ban them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Jack

I’ll take the lawyers advice thanks.

He is no fool.

---

So that is your take after all of this - to defend lawyers - LOL.

Seriously guys this is my I told you so speech........several of you were sounding quite whacky yesterday, Put away the tinfoil hats and take a deep breath.........all that negative energy for nothing. See I told you so.

This whole shotgun fiasco was started by an organizations lawyer who has an axe to grind with the Federal government.
Why let the facts interfere with the advancement of the cause.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greatwhite

Really none of these guns should be banned as they are not so called assault rifles. They are just dressed up to look that way. It's like taking a cavalier and giving it a fancy paint job and pretending it will go faster.

But a few on here truly believe that a dressed up gun becomes super powerful the moment you put a military looking stock on it and they pretty much admit they believe that.

---

Don’t you know, a black Cavalier will kill a lot more people.

Thank goodness mine is burgundy so it's probably a safe place. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Don’t you know, a black Cavalier will kill a lot more people.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Don’t you know, a black Cavalier will kill a lot more people.

---

According to some of the insurance companies its red. A red car will kill more lol. Goes along with the sports cars I guess.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Oh crap I might have a violent car.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishfood

According to some of the insurance companies its red. A red car will kill more lol. Goes along with the sports cars I guess.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

---

HaHa, With blackwall tires, they can be deadly....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

The other thread has almost run its coarse so will post this here.

Want more proof Blair is a conniving sack of S, that CANNOT be trusted?


4100
For the most part I agree with you. The liberals for time immortal have PROVEN to be untrustworthy. Bill Blair has proven it as well. If nothing remember the G20.....

I will be sharing this on facebook. I need to think about the right hook. Gun owners will read it. The people we need reading stuff?

And so what if, we, start fighting fire with Fire a bit. Bend things a little. They’ve done it for years!

Here’s the article. Read it, from his own bloody playbook. How to win the PR battle. Because if you don’t sell the “silent” unknowledgable majority. it’s lost.

But instead of having a plan to justify buying scary ARs....how do you ban them


he’s a scheming, sack of S. A career politician. That has zero credibility. That is not “fear mongering” and cannot be ignored.
https://mydigitalpublication.com/pub...cle_id=2655529

---

Are you saying Blair is a career politician?

Nah, he's a boots on the ground cop, that didn't worm his way out of taking responsibly for the G20, as any Chief would have done. Instead he threw his own under the bus and slinked or slipped away like teflon. And he never had his eyes on politics either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Nah, he's a boots on the ground cop, that didn't worm his way out of taking responsibly for the G20, as any Chief would have done. Instead he threw his own under the bus and slinked or slipped away like teflon. And he never had his eyes on politics either.

---

But he has all the characteristics of a career politician

I'm so glad I hunt with a 20guage!! Lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Woodsman

This whole shotgun fiasco was started by an organizations lawyer who has an axe to grind with the Federal government.
Why let the facts interfere with the advancement of the cause.

---

Yep, the bore has never been defined by the muzzle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Guys

Using Australia, New Zealand, the Uk as models of success for banning weapons. Or for any comparative uses.

Just junk.

It’s an Apples to rotten vegetable comparison. They aren’t even both fruit.

All of the above are small islands half way around the world. Don’t share a border with the Wild West. Their “realities” are night and day, from ours. And I’m not even sure. If what they hunt, how they hunt are close enough?

Many people here use slug guns for deer and bear. Do they have anything like Bear there?
And I have witnessed first hand, why semi auto Shotguns are far superior to pump or other.

just ask a hunter that’s had to track a wounded Bear, through thick brush. There’s even some dead hunters you can ask....

---

Completely the opposite both were British Colonies and so was the Wild West.The wild west is still the wild west with mass shootings every other week.Australia and New Zealand have laws based on the British Parliamentary system.The realities in their history and population base are the exact same as us,its the Yanks who went off side and look at what they have a government that obey,s the NRA lobbyists.

Blair and Justlied should think outside their little bubble;
Here is an interesting fact, two countries with identical populations;

Honduras, pop. 8.2 million, bans citizens from owning guns.
"Has the highest homicide rate in the entire world. "

Switzerland, pop.8.2 million, Requires citizens to own guns
"Has the lowest homicide rate in the entire world."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

But he has all the characteristics of a career politician

---

True, he displays all the qualities that's for sure..no clue what's hes' doing and lies a lot... BUT he doesn't have much of a poker face..when he lies his checks turn red..Can't be a good politician if you blush when you lie..especially now with HD !!! HaHa

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

True, he displays all the qualities that's for sure..no clue what's hes' doing and lies a lot... BUT he doesn't have much of a poker face..when he lies his checks turn red..Can't be a good politician if you blush when you lie..especially now with HD !!! HaHa

---

Oh yea, just watch his interview with CCFR....who caught him in a bald faced lie !!! He turned all shades of red !!
Come to think about it.....he’s red faced a lot !!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaycee

Blair and Justlied should think outside their little bubble;
Here is an interesting fact, two countries with identical populations;

Honduras, pop. 8.2 million, bans citizens from owning guns.
"Has the highest homicide rate in the entire world. "

Switzerland, pop.8.2 million, Requires citizens to own guns
"Has the lowest homicide rate in the entire world."

---

Maybe in Honduras they stab each other to death?
Canada has less gun death,s than Switzerland.

Honduras is not even in the top six countries for death by gun the top being Brazil,United States of America,Mexico,Colombia,Venezuela,

El Salvador had the highest gun rate death at 39.2 per 100,000. No mention of Honduras.

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/29/177927...-deaths-global

Well,after borrowing a machinist micrometer and removing my shotgun barrels, if bore inner diameter is measured at the front of the forcing cone and not at the muzzle as some claim,both my 12ga. guns are within the threshold (20mm). Evidently,after all these years,I find that I've been measuring barrels at the muzzle incorrectly. See,you really can teach old dogs new tricks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

Maybe in Honduras they stab each other to death?
Canada has less gun death,s than Switzerland.

Honduras is not even in the top six countries for death by gun the top being Brazil,United States of America,Mexico,Colombia,Venezuela,

El Salvador had the highest gun rate death at 39.2 per 100,000. No mention of Honduras.

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/29/177927...-deaths-global

---

Read and reread and understand , equal populations!. Guns banned verses Guns Required!

What I can read is that they are not equal populations. Population numbers being what they are Switzerland has about 8.5 million and Honduras 9.5. Having roughly a difference of a million is about as close as anything will ever be when comparing these two countries with fundamental and profound differences. Murder rates are often done as a comparision to 100,000 people. That way countries can be compared on a level playing field, even states or municipalities can be compared.

If you have a valid argument use better compatibles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kickingfrog

What I can read is that they are not equal populations. Population numbers being what they are Switzerland has about 8.5 million and Honduras 9.5. Having roughly a difference of a million is about as close as anything will ever be when comparing these two countries with fundamental and profound differences. Murder rates are often done as a comparision to 100,000 people. That way countries can be compared on a level playing field, even states or municipalities can be compared.

If you have a valid argument use better compatibles.

---

That survey was from a couple of years ago when populations were close to equal equal!:D

As of 1 January 2020, the population of Honduras was estimated to be 8,624,028 people. This is an increase of 1.47 % (124,685 people) compared to population of 8,499,343 the year before.

. In 2018, the total population of Switzerland amounted to around 8.48 million people.

Is that close enough for you

Do you hunt in the US Trimmer?

The CBSA defines bore as from throat to muzzle. If you do, maybe your there today with your 12ga. Good chance your not getting back into Canada with it.

Borethe inside of the barrel of a firearm, from the throat to the muzzle, through which the projectile travels.

https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publicat...-13-2-eng.html

and that is a perfect example of why people who know their subject matter proof things, before they get signed off on. Or made into law

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rick_iles

Oh yea, just watch his interview with CCFR....who caught him in a bald faced lie !!! He turned all shades of red !!
Come to think about it.....he’s red faced a lot !!!

---

it's like they say" How can you tell if a politician is lying....their mouth is open. "

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

Completely the opposite both were British Colonies and so was the Wild West.The wild west is still the wild west with mass shootings every other week.Australia and New Zealand have laws based on the British Parliamentary system.The realities in their history and population base are the exact same as us,its the Yanks who went off side and look at what they have a government that obey,s the NRA lobbyists.

---

They are Islands half way around the world.
They do not share a land border with the Wild West.

Funny thing Gilroy, New Zealand stopped Covid COLD. Could it be because preventing a virus from entering a small island is a lot easier when...........your a small Island.

FFFs we can’t even stop irregular immigrants...... humans that cross the border, let alone....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

They are Islands half way around the world.
They do not share a land border with the Wild West.

Funny thing Gilroy, New Zealand stopped Covid COLD. Could it be because preventing a virus from entering a small island is a lot easier when...........your a small Island.

FFFs we can’t even stop irregular immigrants...... humans that cross the border, let alone....

---

There’s no will to stop illegal immigrants......the village idiot has given them a personal invite !!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trimmer21

Well,after borrowing a machinist micrometer and removing my shotgun barrels, if bore inner diameter is measured at the front of the forcing cone and not at the muzzle as some claim,both my 12ga. guns are within the threshold (20mm). Evidently,after all these years,I find that I've been measuring barrels at the muzzle incorrectly. See,you really can teach old dogs new tricks.

---

Most don’t understand how to measure chokes either. Dropping a notched feeler gauge in the muzzle doesn’t tell you much. You need to mic the bore and then muzzle and compare the difference between the two. Not all gun manufacturers have identical bore sizes for a 12g.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaycee

That survey was from a couple of years ago when populations were close to equal equal!:D

As of 1 January 2020, the population of Honduras was estimated to be 8,624,028 people. This is an increase of 1.47 % (124,685 people) compared to population of 8,499,343 the year before.

. In 2018, the total population of Switzerland amounted to around 8.48 million people.

Is that close enough for you

---

The Swiss have mandatory service in the army. That says it all but I will add, it is not just the population, but the location in the world. Would you say the Spanish are more emotional, or quick tempered than the Swiss. Never mind the other variables, like the violent neighbors surrounding them. As JB is wont to say, that is like comparing fruit to vegetables. The comparisons and hence the results do not make rational sense.

Yep, it is.

It’s like looking at the Covid fatalies between Italy and Canada. Apples to Oranges. Both are fruit, but vastly different.

their population is older. But it’s older for reasons ( diet, general health). And that’s just the beginning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trimmer21

Well,after borrowing a machinist micrometer and removing my shotgun barrels, if bore inner diameter is measured at the front of the forcing cone and not at the muzzle as some claim,both my 12ga. guns are within the threshold (20mm). Evidently,after all these years,I find that I've been measuring barrels at the muzzle incorrectly. See,you really can teach old dogs new tricks.

---

Again.......I told you guys. But you were gripped by panic and fear - LOL

J ben

There may be a theory of covid and the heat . Warmer climates are seeing less confirmed cases examples I've heard the south end of north America had less outbreaks then the northern parts.

Also Japan and Australia have way less, it alot hotter there now . Yes Japan was the one of the first to start the shut downs schools and such but they are still open for business. Restaurants and bars are open till 9pm and only letting it half the regular amount of people to leave room for social distancing. Australia has alot more restrictions than Japan only a theory but being islands it could also be a thing.

Had to call my buddy the other day to see what they were doing differently than Canada. He has family in both Japan and Australia also he lived in Japan for 11 years so he still keeps the contact with them. Japan is running not like here they only put in half the restrictions we did.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

The “point” there is that when using X for comparative purposes against Y. You want to account for all variables. So you have a baseline. If you can’t control those...

Using Canada/US and comparing our gun deaths. Forget gun control differences. Forget all differences except.

We pay a ton of taxes. Some gun owners gripe about that. They don’t pay a ton. They have issues with inner cities, poverty, literacy, access to healthcare/mental health etc.

Think our guns deaths would be the same?

Regarding Bores.

I guess people missed this.

The CBSA defines bore as from throat to muzzle. If you do, maybe your there today with your 12ga. Good chance your not getting back into Canada with it.

Borethe inside of the barrel of a firearm, from the throat to the muzzle, through which the projectile travels.

https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publicat...-13-2-eng.html

Should have added. We all know there’s a simple solution. But right now it is potentially a big problem.

Not sure if this will help but here we go:

Good Morning,

With respect to your concerns regarding the legality of shotguns of 12, or 10 gauge:

The SFSS (Specialized Firearm Support Services) section of the RCMP uses the SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute) definition of bore diameter.

This definition states: Shotguns or muskets, the interior dimension of the barrel forward of the chamber but before any restrictive choke or expanded muzzle.

https://saami.org/glossary/bore-diameter/

As such, the 12 gauge and 10 gauge shotgun bores both fall below the 20 mm limit as outlined Subsection 95 of SOR/2020-96 as the 12 gauge and 10 gauge shotguns have nominal bore diameters of 18.5 mm and 19.69 mm respectively.

In short, both 12 gauge and 10 gauge shotguns are unaffected by Subsection 95 of SOR/2020-96.

I have attached an image for your reference.

Please let us know if you have any further questions,

My response:

Thank you for the followup, I still have a few concerns, however. First of all, is there any legislation in Canada that recognizes the authority of SAAAMI to define this? Because other governmental agencies seem to use a different definition. CBSA Memorandum D19-13-2 (https://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications...-13-2-eng.html), for example, defines the bore as "the inside of the barrel of a firearm, from the throat to the muzzle, through which the projectile travels." Also, SAAAMI specifies that the industry standard, by the definition they provide, of the bore for 10 ga is up to 20.2mm, as found on page 19 of the following document. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...2019-04-23.pdf. Does this make 10 ga prohibited, by the SAAAMI definition?

Their response:

Hello, SAAMI is just one of the standards organizations that specializes in firearms that we use internally and that are used across industry and different governmental partners. The AFTE definition of shotgun bore diameter, for example, explicitly excludes chokes, whether removable or integral. The CBSA's definition is more broad and generalized and while it is "good enough" for most things, please remember that their definition is largely meant to be used in the context of their specific legislation.

You are correct that the SAAMI spec for 10ga has a built-in tolerance that could bring certain shotguns past 20mm bore. If that is the case, then those individual shotguns could be affected by the new legislation. However, the nominal bore diameter listed in the specification is under 20mm, so 10ga shotguns are not, in general, affected by this legislation.

If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask.

https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/...truth_matters/

And saami specifies 10 gauge is up to 20.2mm

https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/...02mm_if_youre/

So for any American wanting to travel to Canada to hunt with their 12 gauge will not be allowed access because the CBSA definition is different than the SAAAMI definition?.........Great there goes more revenue for our Northern Ontario outfitters because of this bogus legislation.

Seabast

The key point you are missing is the removable choke, if that is considered to be not part of the barrel as per the two lawyers views and the definition you give above... take out the choke and boom it is over.... as per my earlier post. I am sure you can find many different definitions on the bore size, but given the lack of definition in the legislation, the allowance for interpretation until defined in court it is the opinion of lawyers and judges that matter, not an industry definition. The rifles involved are industry defined as semi-automatic rifles, NOT assault rifles also but that is irrelevant to the legal definition as defined by ideologues making the laws and judges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

Let's see..... since some seems to not notice page 6 and 7 of the opinion that specifies the size... how about another place. In the opinion he talk about a diameter of .814 which exceeds the 20mm and he lists models and diameters and concludes with ...

https://www.csaaa.org/wp-content/upl...e-shotguns.pdf
"In my opinion 12 gauge shotgun with the screw in systems for use of "Winchoke", "Browning Invector", and "Beretta Optima and Optima Plus" are prohibited under the definition in Section 9 of SOR 2020/96

These noted barrel systems are presently prohibited firearms as defined in SOR 2020/96.
" - Edward L. Burlew LL.B.

So to validate it I found a page for installing a Winchoke...
https://ktgunsmith.com/choketube.htm

... now let's look at the tool and it's cut.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...prod25287.aspx
SPECS: 12 gauge has .814"-32 tpi.

... now convert .814 ... 20.6756 .... ooops .....

---

What you have posted at the end of the day is relevant only to fixed choke barrels unfortunately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

Seabast

The key point you are missing is the removable choke, if that is considered to be not part of the barrel as per the two lawyers views and the definition you give above... take out the choke and boom it is over.... as per my earlier post. I am sure you can find many different definitions on the bore size, but given the lack of definition in the legislation, the allowance for interpretation until defined in court it is the opinion of lawyers and judges that matter, not an industry definition. The rifles involved are industry defined as semi-automatic rifles, NOT assault rifles also but that is irrelevant to the legal definition as defined by ideologues making the laws and judges.



What you have posted at the end of the day is relevant only to fixed choke barrels unfortunately.

---

Skitter
You are fear mongering - maybe you should put on a tinfoil hat (kidding aside). Shotguns are not part of the intent of the gun ban and the CSSA is just grandstanding to show how hastily this was put together.

When you get two lawyers on opposing sides of an issue to agree on something than you have something.........two lawyers on the same side of an issue agreeing is nothing. CSSA is not a governing body, hell we can hire a lawyer and make our own statements and assumptions about out interpretation of this gun ban - all you need is time and money.

But people running around screaming the sky is falling does nothing but incite fear and panic - honestly we look like simpleton's when we cannot interpret the intent of the law. Do not take away from the fact that they are taking away 85,000 AR's from legal gun owners and all some people can say is.........oooh look........this also includes shotguns - pleeeaaase. Riddle me this.......the reason Bill and Justin did not include pistols in this ban was because it would cost too much money because of the quantities that are in circulation. Then why in hell would he 'intentionally' include shotguns with interchangeable chokes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaycee

Read and reread and understand , equal populations!. Guns banned verses Guns Required!

---

I think I read it pretty good,a simple internet check would have revealed to you the following;

Only citizens of Honduras and foreign citizens who are legal residents of Honduras may purchase, own, possess, or transport any handgun, shotgun, or rifle as permitted and defined under the Act on the Control of Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives and Other Related Materials.[7][19] A license for every firearm must be obtained and renewed every four years.[20]

Where did you get the idea they were banned .

Where did you get the idea Honduras has the highest homicide rate in the world?

I believe Japan has the lowest homicide rate in the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

Japan I believe has the lowest homicide rate in the World.

---

Probably because they used the death penalty lol.

39 percent of there people who commit murder pay with their life. The more people you kill the better odds your on your death sentence. They even sentence kidnappers for ransom half of the cases result in a death sentence.


We should have the same laws [emoji106]

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishfood

Probably because they used the death penalty lol.

39 percent of there people who commit murder pay with their life. The more people you kill the better odds your on your death sentence. They even sentence kidnappers for ransom half of the cases result in a death sentence.


We should have the same laws [emoji106]

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

---

What would our 130,000 lawyers do if you start killing off all their clients.lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Skitter
You are fear mongering - maybe you should put on a tinfoil hat (kidding aside). Shotguns are not part of the intent of the gun ban and the CSSA is just grandstanding to show how hastily this was put together.

When you get two lawyers on opposing sides of an issue to agree on something than you have something.........two lawyers on the same side of an issue agreeing is nothing. CSSA is not a governing body, hell we can hire a lawyer and make our own statements and assumptions about out interpretation of this gun ban - all you need is time and money.

But people running around screaming the sky is falling does nothing but incite fear and panic - honestly we look like simpleton's when we cannot interpret the intent of the law. Do not take away from the fact that they are taking away 85,000 AR's from legal gun owners and all some people can say is.........oooh look........this also includes shotguns - pleeeaaase. Riddle me this.......the reason Bill and Justin did not include pistols in this ban was because it would cost too much money because of the quantities that are in circulation. Then why in hell would he 'intentionally' include shotguns with interchangeable chokes?

---

You are basing your opinion on....??

We know the lefties won't care if there is evidence as usual but....

I'm basing mine on the actual lawyers, the diameter required for a winchoke in their specs and firearm lawyers opinions, opinions that have yet to be defined in the legislation or before a judge.... likely ... it is that they are just incompetent ... again... but given their history of out right bald face lies... let me ask you, until it is defined explicitly in the legislation, why would you trust them?

As for handguns, well Torstar and UNIFOR and others were already calling for their ban.... link is dead, UNIFOR deleted the post.... lots of screen shots I will maybe find one later.

.... we will have a debt of over $260B+ this year .... do you think Justlied and Billy care if it makes $270B or more? They just gave almost $1B to the WHO that spent more time kissing China's tush than putting out facts
Why not look ahead, they are on a tight rope .... a handgun ban would be a good fear mongering tool to get votes... in essence saying "oh look, 60% of the crimes are with handguns.... we are the party that will ban them.... those Conservatives just want to be like Harper and ....*** make up lie here **** )". The assault rifle ban is one of the factors that got them enough support to get the seats to create the coalition for socialism and letting them spend all they can.

Justlied Trudeau and Bill Blair have repeatedly lied, fear monger and misrepresented the laws of Canada over and over, so I will trust the opinions of two lawyers for firearm groups.... the entire legislation is an act of propaganda and distraction to gain support for an election possibly in the next year if the NDP and Bloc see the opportunity. Facing an opposition that is trying to hold them to account while appeasing the Chinese dictatorship, the NDP, the BLOC and look good without a makeup artist.... poor Justlied's beard will be all white by the fall. Reminds, me, the two Michaels are still in prison in China (without trial and charges apparently), it's been over 500 days by far, I wonder how they are doing.


P.S.
and apparently they are still adding to that list...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

P.S. 2 As of 2 wks ago, Michael's still in prison, 500+days... Libs... don't seem to care.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...n-confinement/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

What would our 130,000 lawyers do if you start killing off all their clients.lol

---

They still get paid they still go through the courts.[emoji106][emoji1787] you have to be convicted first .

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Skitter
You are fear mongering - maybe you should put on a tinfoil hat (kidding aside). Shotguns are not part of the intent of the gun ban and the CSSA is just grandstanding to show how hastily this was put together.

When you get two lawyers on opposing sides of an issue to agree on something than you have something.........two lawyers on the same side of an issue agreeing is nothing. CSSA is not a governing body, hell we can hire a lawyer and make our own statements and assumptions about out interpretation of this gun ban - all you need is time and money.

But people running around screaming the sky is falling does nothing but incite fear and panic - honestly we look like simpleton's when we cannot interpret the intent of the law. Do not take away from the fact that they are taking away 85,000 AR's from legal gun owners and all some people can say is.........oooh look........this also includes shotguns - pleeeaaase. Riddle me this.......the reason Bill and Justin did not include pistols in this ban was because it would cost too much money because of the quantities that are in circulation. Then why in hell would he 'intentionally' include shotguns with interchangeable chokes?

---

+1.The ones looking like simpletons are the CSSA, CSAAA, Ed Burlew and perhaps the owners of Elwood Epps. The "firearms organizations" are attempting to generate hysteria for the purposes of fundraising and nothing more.

Meanwhile, the gunputz are embracing this "legal opinion" as gospel despite government statements refuting the opinion.

But I'll play along with the gun(numb)nutz. "Okay coppers, come and get me. I'm not going easy. You will have to pry my Krieghoff from my COLD DEAD HANDS!!!" Moron Labe. :silly:

Explain the definition CBSA uses Badenoch. And can you not see the potential problems?

You entire post is made “worthless” by that 1 fact.

I don’t get it. You know we need a better image with the public, but then you behave no differently towards the CSAAA etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

You are basing your opinion on....??

We know the lefties won't care if there is evidence as usual but....

I'm basing mine on the actual lawyers, the diameter required for a winchoke in their specs and firearm lawyers opinions, opinions that have yet to be defined in the legislation or before a judge.... likely ... it is that they are just incompetent ... again... but given their history of out right bald face lies... let me ask you, until it is defined explicitly in the legislation, why would you trust them?

As for handguns, well Torstar and UNIFOR and others were already calling for their ban.... link is dead, UNIFOR deleted the post.... lots of screen shots I will maybe find one later.

.... we will have a debt of over $260B+ this year .... do you think Justlied and Billy care if it makes $270B or more? They just gave almost $1B to the WHO that spent more time kissing China's tush than putting out facts
Why not look ahead, they are on a tight rope .... a handgun ban would be a good fear mongering tool to get votes... in essence saying "oh look, 60% of the crimes are with handguns.... we are the party that will ban them.... those Conservatives just want to be like Harper and ....*** make up lie here **** )". The assault rifle ban is one of the factors that got them enough support to get the seats to create the coalition for socialism and letting them spend all they can.

Justlied Trudeau and Bill Blair have repeatedly lied, fear monger and misrepresented the laws of Canada over and over, so I will trust the opinions of two lawyers for firearm groups.... the entire legislation is an act of propaganda and distraction to gain support for an election possibly in the next year if the NDP and Bloc see the opportunity. Facing an opposition that is trying to hold them to account while appeasing the Chinese dictatorship, the NDP, the BLOC and look good without a makeup artist.... poor Justlied's beard will be all white by the fall. Reminds, me, the two Michaels are still in prison in China (without trial and charges apparently), it's been over 500 days by far, I wonder how they are doing.


P.S.
and apparently they are still adding to that list...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

P.S. 2 As of 2 wks ago, Michael's still in prison, 500+days... Libs... don't seem to care.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...n-confinement/

---

Really.......you're quoting facebook!!?? Are you serious? God help your followers - LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishfood

They still get paid they still go through the courts.[emoji106][emoji1787] you have to be convicted first .

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

---

You have to admit its not a very good business model.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

You have to admit its not a very good business model.

---

That's how how the budget balances itself [emoji1787][emoji1787]

Without those extra taxes the government needs so Much oh my .


Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 410001661

Really.......you're quoting facebook!!?? Are you serious? God help your followers - LOL

---

Yes, especially since he is the "Sales and Marketing Director at Cadex Defence", seems looking was too hard, it's the company that just had two more of it's rifles added to the list.

• May 1st was our CDX-50 Tremor 50BMG
• 48 hours ago was our CDX-40 Shadow 408CT
• and today was our CDX-40 Shadow 375CT

A bolt action precision rifle in 375 CT
https://www.cadexdefence.com/product...cdx-40-shadow/

I'm sure there was a huge problem with a gun that costs thousands and the ammo is $100 for 10.
https://deserttech.com/ammunition/375-ct.php



But hey...
http://web-extract.constantcontact.c...pj_MezE4lUxlps

" [COLOR=#1D2228]The Canadian Border Services Agency (CBSA) Memorandum D19-13-2, issued May 29, 2019, defines BORE as:


the inside of the barrel of a firearm, from the throat to the muzzle, through which the projectile travels. ^v


By the CBSA’s definition, it may be all 12-gauge and 10-gauge shotguns – not just those with removable chokes – are now Prohibited firearms because they do not consider the forcing cone, the “throat” of the barrel, which exceeds the 20 mm maximum bore diameter specified in SOR/2020-96.


Will Minister Blair is support the CBSA opinion that meshes with two of Canada’s top legal experts in firearms law?


Or will he toss them under the bus because he can’t admit he made a huge mistake?


We demand Minister Bill Blair immediately rescind SOR/2020-96 until such time as he can figure out what he’s doing. "


P.S.
Since UNIFOR delete the link (my book mark no longer worked and I went to their page and it was gone), here is a screen shot someone took saying ban handguns too.
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...79&oe=5EDB2E88

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

Explain the definition CBSA uses Badenoch. And can you not see the potential problems?

You entire post is made “worthless” by that 1 fact.

I don’t get it. You know we need a better image with the public, but then you behave no differently towards the CSAAA etc.

---

The CBSA can explain its own rules and it's not a problem for me because I'm not bringing a gun into the country. The Minister has clarified the position and will take that at face value.

Anyone too frightened to take out a 12 gauge with choke tubes based on the "legal opinion" of Ed Burlew I'd suggest hiding under the bed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badenoch

The CBSA can explain its own rules and it's not a problem for me because I'm not bringing a gun into the country. The Minister has clarified the position and will take that at face value.

Anyone too frightened to take out a 12 gauge with choke tubes based on the "legal opinion" of Ed Burlew I'd suggest hiding under the bed.

---

X2........I have my Form 6 application out for approval and I am still planning on shooting in PA and NY when the boarder and gun ranges open. I will have no problem taking any of my guns (pistol/shotgun/rifle) stateside to shoot and bring it back into Canada.

The Plot thickens.........

http://web-extract.constantcontact.c...D1582690646000

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by huntervinni

The Plot thickens.........

http://web-extract.constantcontact.c...D1582690646000

---

No no no, Billy said in a tweet that shotguns arent part of the ban. His tweet overrules all.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

what a e show this is becoming......who do we trust?????

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by huntervinni

what a e show this is becoming......who do we trust?????

---

... are you basing that questions answer on the evidence, or ideological intent? The evidence would say the answers differ....

It all depends on the definition they choose of the 20mm bore size, the CBSA definition...., the lawyers interpretation using the removable choke size, .814" as per boring tool for Winchoke, or other to be defined.

A good article here.
https://calibremag.ca/oic-errors-continue/

Only gonna get worse. Wait until the libranos get a majority. They will ban all semis, pumps, levers and handguns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

I think I read it pretty good,a simple internet check would have revealed to you the following;

Only citizens of Honduras and foreign citizens who are legal residents of Honduras may purchase, own, possess, or transport any handgun, shotgun, or rifle as permitted and defined under the Act on the Control of Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives and Other Related Materials.[7][19] A license for every firearm must be obtained and renewed every four years.[20]

Where did you get the idea they were banned .

Where did you get the idea Honduras has the highest homicide rate in the world?

I believe Japan has the lowest homicide rate in the world.

---

I guess that in your simple internet check, you missed this fact!

Rates

Honduras indisputably has the highest homicide rate in the world, with estimates ranging from a rate of 90.4 intentional homicides per 100,000 people in 2012, according to the United Nations, to 103.9 per 100,000 population, according to the World Health Organization.
The vast majority, more than 80 percent, of those homicides are linked to a firearm. Lethal shootings most often occur in urban centers and areas along the Atlantic coast and border regions, which suggests the violence is linked to drug trafficking patterns and gangs, according to a report on Honduras by the Small Arms Survey, a Swiss-based research project.

Switzerland’s homicide rate is among the lowest in the world, but the meme goes too far in saying it’s the very lowest. By the UN and WHO measures, the most recent Swiss intentional homicide rate is 0.6 deaths per population.

The above comes from Polifacts!

A little more factual info!
As far as homicide rates go, Honduras does have the highestintentional homicide rate in the world at about 90.4 homicides per 100,000 people per year (which is even shockingly higher than the homicide rate of the next worst country, Venezuela, at 53.7). Although Switzerland’s intentional homicide rate is indeed low at 0.6, it isn’t quite the lowest in the world: it’s bested by several other countries such as Liechtenstein, Monaco, Iceland, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, the latter two of which have some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the world. Moreover, a better metric for comparison purposes here might perhaps be the firearm-related death rate rather than the overall intentional homicide rate; in that case, Honduras is still the worst, but Switzerland doesn’t fare quite as well (ranking behind about 43 other countries).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by huntervinni

......who do we trust?????

---

Our Government,they are there for us.....to give clear directions,on time,upfront ,with open and clear communication .........right...?.....or maybe not?....then who they are there for???...........or why they are there at all.????.......wait.........i am confused now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by huntervinni

The Plot thickens.........

http://web-extract.constantcontact.c...D1582690646000

---

So Badenock, and 410001661 how would you like your crow.
CBSA did not do it, it was the RCMP..

Oh for FFS.

CBSA first of all is an agency of the government of Canada. Did you two forget that.

Have you forgotten some basic truths in law? Or have neither of you ever worked with legal documents? The legal definitions have to be uniform. Ever read a will ? Can you imagine a world where the legal definition of property (land) meant A....and....B

Otherwise it’s chaos!!!

And lastly,
Last I checked millions of Shotguns are imported. So we can buy them. Or do they not cross the border before ending up at Cabellas? So it’s not just about you. It’s people that hunt in other parts of the world...and

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by huntervinni

what a e show this is becoming......who do we trust?????

---

Trust your gut. Liberal posters here all say "Bill and Justin said it was OK,it didn't apply cuz they said so." Yet,here we are with the RCMP and CBSA seizing an old Iver Johnson single shot 12ga. on video,nonetheless. Without a doubt,the Liberals couldn't organize a one-armed pivot man at a circle jerk. If this isn't fixed,officially,in the next 24 hrs in a fit and proper manner,we may draw the conclusion that this was deliberate and by design making Trudeau and Blair unrepentant,bald-faced Liberal liars beyond redemption and totally unfit to hold the offices that they do. If they had one shred of honor and credibility,their OIC should be rescinded with both offering their resignations,forthwith. In nthe meantime,leave your shotguns locked up. Sooner rather than later,this will be ironed out,one way or the other.

No kidding Trimmer.

I most certainly do not think this is the beginning of “hitler” disarming us.

But I do weep for our children. Because parents are obviously apathetic

And it’s the devil

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBen

No kidding Trimmer.

I most certainly do not think this is the beginning of “hitler” disarming us.

But I do weep for our children. Because parents are obviously apathetic

And it’s the devil

---

Canadians are apathetic because,so far,nothing really bad has happened to them,yet,even after this Covid-19 threat,other than a huge inconvenience. I don't know what it will take to get them out of their torpor,short of an armed incursion by a hostile foreign power that really means business. I have European friends and colleagues who came from countries where exactly that happened and they're all very concerned about what they're seeing,here. I,too,worry for our children and grandchildren.

Posted on RCMP website.

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firear...and-devices?re

Quote:

---

Important notice: Update on10and12gauge shotgun classification under the new prohibition

On May1st,2020, the Government of Canada announced that it had made amendments to the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted (SOR/98-462) [Classification Regulations] prescribing certain firearms as prohibited. One of the categories of the newly prohibited firearms include"Any firearm with a bore diameter of20mm or greater"(s.95of the Classification Regulations).

The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements. "The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee,1st Ed.1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that"...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke."The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for10ga and12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke.

Further, in making classification assessments of firearms which are reflected in the FRT, the CFP relies on recognized industry standard measurements. With respect to10ga and12ga shotguns, the CFP recognizes the SAAMI standard specifications which establish that the nominal (i.e. standard) bore diameter measurements for10ga and12ga shotguns are below the20mm threshold (19.69mm for10ga,18.42mm for12ga).

---

CBSA ( May 2019)

IMPORTING and exporting firearms.
https://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications...-13-2-eng.html

Now do we see the problem?
Solution is easy. CBSA changes theirs so that definitions are uniform. They to use SAAMI. However when two law enforcement agencies ( of the Govt) cant get THEIR Shyte together because those above them are village idiots....

There we go..thanks Blargon !! :thumbup:

As far as the CBSA...they use the RCMP for the policing services/needs so that solves that too...print off the page and keep it with you if your traveling and worried about this nonsense.

some levity....

https://i.imgur.com/VV24yhWl.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaycee

I guess that in your simple internet check, you missed this fact!

Rates

Honduras indisputably has the highest homicide rate in the world, with estimates ranging from a rate of 90.4 intentional homicides per 100,000 people in 2012, according to the United Nations, to 103.9 per 100,000 population, according to the World Health Organization.
The vast majority, more than 80 percent, of those homicides are linked to a firearm. Lethal shootings most often occur in urban centers and areas along the Atlantic coast and border regions, which suggests the violence is linked to drug trafficking patterns and gangs, according to a report on Honduras by the Small Arms Survey, a Swiss-based research project.

Switzerland’s homicide rate is among the lowest in the world, but the meme goes too far in saying it’s the very lowest. By the UN and WHO measures, the most recent Swiss intentional homicide rate is 0.6 deaths per population.

The above comes from Polifacts!

A little more factual info!
As far as homicide rates go, Honduras does have the highestintentional homicide rate in the world at about 90.4 homicides per 100,000 people per year (which is even shockingly higher than the homicide rate of the next worst country, Venezuela, at 53.7). Although Switzerland’s intentional homicide rate is indeed low at 0.6, it isn’t quite the lowest in the world: it’s bested by several other countries such as Liechtenstein, Monaco, Iceland, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, the latter two of which have some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the world. Moreover, a better metric for comparison purposes here might perhaps be the firearm-related death rate rather than the overall intentional homicide rate; in that case, Honduras is still the worst, but Switzerland doesn’t fare quite as well (ranking behind about 43 other countries).

---

What has this got to do with this thread ?? Who cares about Honduras !!!

Let's look at that Epps video a little closer.

The Epps measurements were .692" at the choke and .818" at the bore's widest point for a .126" difference. The standard constriction of a tight 12 gauge full choke is .040" while the tightest turkey choke I could find is .060" meaning the choke on the Epps shotgun is over twice the constriction of the tightest choke on the market.

The question it raises for me is how long the Epps gunsmith spent reaming that barrel. A .818" bore is larger than a 10 gauge and is closer to an 8 gauge. Yeah, sure it came from the factory that way. :rolleye:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snowwalker

So Badenock, and 410001661 how would you like your crow.
CBSA did not do it, it was the RCMP..

---

How would I like my crow.........who talks like that anymore?

This is a dead issue - please drop it already. These are not, and were never intended, to be part of the ban. Stop the fear mongering already!!

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firear...and-devices?re

Yea the issue has been clarified by the RCMP...the Law...so its pretty much dead...

nothing to see here folks...move on..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

Yea the issue has been clarified by the RCMP...the Law...so its pretty much dead...

nothing to see here folks...move on..

---

.... yep .... you can trust the RCMP and Bill Blair......

"Further, in making classification assessments of firearms which are reflected in the FRT, the CFP relies on recognized industry standard measurements. With respect to 10ga and 12ga shotguns, the CFP recognizes the SAAMI standard specifications which establish that the nominal (i.e. standard) bore diameter measurements for 10ga and 12ga shotguns are below the 20mm threshold (19.69mm for 10ga, 18.42mm for 12ga)."

.... which contrasts with Canadian Border Services.... and uh ... where is the LEGAL definition? Not some industry standard? The industry standard for most of the rifles banned in this insult of a legislation is to call them semi-automatic .... by that logic .... does that make all semi-automatics also Assault rifles by liberal definition?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

does that make all semi-automatics also Assault rifles by liberal definition?

---

The issue of this thread.. The OP's Topic... was specific the 'bore' size restriction for shotguns...

This RCMP press release has put that issue to bed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikePal

The issue of this thread.. The OP's Topic... was specific the 'bore' size restriction for shotguns...

This RCMP press release has put that issue to bed.

---

They are adhering to a STANDARD... where is the LEGAL definition?

This is the same RCMP that just before the registry disappeared there was that deal with the .22 rifles... remember that, the flood in Alberta where they seemed to have access to some kind of list of firearms owners had....

... so do you trust Bill Blair and the RCMP without a legal definition... I mean they have added atleast 2 more Cadex rifles to the list since it was put out, why not a definition like "midpoint" or X inches.... but hey if you trust them... as for me based on their performance and history... I think Jody W.R. probably trusted the PM too... and voters did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY3I2ewuxQ0 the evidence though....

Not so much, not without a clear, in writing and specific LEGAL definition.... not an industry standard or policy... that also is in contrast to Canadian Border Services.... I've seen standards and policies change too many times in company related things and to trust politicians like these and the RCMP brass....

Attachment 40224

For the wabbit hunters Jaycee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilroy

Attachment 40224

For the wabbit hunters Jaycee.

---

I use my 20ga.or .22 for wabbits!:D

For those that want to trust an opinion or policy and not have it in writing...
.... as an example, from Ellwood Epps ...
"Bore Diameter of Iver Johnson 12ga 2 3/4", measuring at 20.777mm"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGpz-2aBYk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mosquito

For those that want to trust an opinion or policy and not have it in writing...
.... as an example, from Ellwood Epps ...
"Bore Diameter of Iver Johnson 12ga 2 3/4", measuring at 20.777mm"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGpz-2aBYk

---

Simple question here, not trying to be a smartass but isnt he suppose to measure the barrel diameter after the action, you know, where the shell enters the barrel....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fratri

Simple question here, not trying to be a smartass but isnt he suppose to measure the barrel diameter after the action, you know, where the shell enters the barrel....

---

NP... if it wasn't snowing and I was working I wouldn't have been taking much time to look it over but the more I looked the more it became clear that there needs to be a definition in writing.

To sum it up, CBSA says anywhere from the throat to the muzzle, the lawyers from two of the firearms groups measured without the choke tubes in, Epps measured probably 8" before the end of the muzzle... the RCMP POLICY says a 4th option... if they can add more rifles to the list, why haven't they added a definition or specific exclusion? .... and do you TRUST their word? I have seen policies and standards change or even conflicting standards in industry several times, based on their behaviour and the vague definition I simply don't think Blair and Trudeau and that bunch are trustworthy at all and won't change the standard to a different "expert" one.

The shotgun by Epps shown is probably OK based on the RCMP, based on the CBSA it is prohibited, based on the lawyers it is OK .... do you trust the Liberal's not to have the RCMP change their standard to "match the CBSA to avoid confusion" etc. at some future date?


They can keep bringing up the RCMP POLICY... but that doesn't make it LAW... and like Justlied Trudeau said about groping the reporter... he just saw it different ... but in a court and before a judge... do you want an opinion, a policy or a legal definition? When you read about something like the Milgram experiment or the methodology used to train concentration camp guards, then to have a gov't run by an admirer of the Chinese dictatorship, to put faith in people's benevolence and the powers that run things blindly... no thanks.

P.S.
Rather than adding a new post.... READ the RCMP statement with your brain turned ON"
1) "it does not include chokes" - that is how the lawyers measured it, without the choke.
2) "The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." - The choke was removed for the lawyers and Epps just proved that 12guage was .81" and therefore prohibited.

Both 1 and 2 point to some 12guage and probably 10 gauge being prohibited depending on the interpretation by the judge or police on WHERE to measure and HOW to measure the barrel bore. The RCMP have one standard, the CBSA another, the lawyers using the legal safe zone picked the maximum point with the choke excluded (removed) from the barrel. They have added more firearms to the list but no definition and no exclusion for shotguns... think about that.

Could this thread get any more ridiculous? Like Dad used to say "Boys,boys,boys,enough already,get the hell outside and play,will ya....NOW".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

Simple question here, not trying to be a smartass but isnt he suppose to measure the barrel diameter after the action, you know, where the shell enters the barrel....

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Would not matter. If the bore exceeds 20 mm at and point it exceeds 20 mm.

The bore diameter will be of a uniform diameter the length of the barrel.

Issued late last night by the RCMP. The bottom paragrph to me says that they are using a standard and NOT your actual shotguns meaurement.

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firear...and-devices?re

Important notice: Update on 10 and 12 gauge shotgun classification under the new prohibition
On May 1st, 2020, the Government of Canada announced that it had made amendments to the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted (SOR/98-462) [Classification Regulations] prescribing certain firearms as prohibited. One of the categories of the newly prohibited firearms include "Any firearm with a bore diameter of 20 mm or greater" (s. 95 of the Classification Regulations).

The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements. "The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee, 1st Ed. 1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that "...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for 10ga and 12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke.

Further, in making classification assessments of firearms which are reflected in the FRT, the CFP relies on recognized industry standard measurements. With respect to 10ga and 12ga shotguns, the CFP recognizes the SAAMI standard specifications which establish that the nominal (i.e. standard) bore diameter measurements for 10ga and 12ga shotguns are below the 20mm threshold (19.69mm for 10ga, 18.42mm for 12ga).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blasted_saber

Issued late last night by the RCMP. The bottom paragrph to me says that they are using a standard and NOT your actual shotguns meaurement.

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firear...and-devices?re

Important notice: Update on 10 and 12 gauge shotgun classification under the new prohibition
On May 1st, 2020, the Government of Canada announced that it had made amendments to the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted (SOR/98-462) [Classification Regulations] prescribing certain firearms as prohibited. One of the categories of the newly prohibited firearms include "Any firearm with a bore diameter of 20 mm or greater" (s. 95 of the Classification Regulations).

The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements. "The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee, 1st Ed. 1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that "...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for 10ga and 12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke.

Further, in making classification assessments of firearms which are reflected in the FRT, the CFP relies on recognized industry standard measurements. With respect to 10ga and 12ga shotguns, the CFP recognizes the SAAMI standard specifications which establish that the nominal (i.e. standard) bore diameter measurements for 10ga and 12ga shotguns are below the 20mm threshold (19.69mm for 10ga, 18.42mm for 12ga).

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Yea..posted way back on #136...

I am guessing Blair and the rest of the Lib Government are loving this distraction...... lots of energy focusing on shotguns and not so much on the guns actually banned....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosquito

For those that want to trust an opinion or policy and not have it in writing...
.... as an example, from Ellwood Epps ...
"Bore Diameter of Iver Johnson 12ga 2 3/4", measuring at 20.777mm"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcGpz-2aBYk

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I posted about this video "proof" in post 141.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

Let's look at that Epps video a little closer.

The Epps measurements were .692" at the choke and .818" at the bore's widest point for a .13" difference. The standard constriction of a 12 gauge full choke is .030" while the tightest turkey choke I could find is .060" meaning the choke on the Epps shotgun is over twice the constriction of the tightest choke on the market.

The question it raises for me is how long the Epps gunsmith spent reaming that barrel. A .818" bore is larger than a 10 gauge and is closer to an 8 gauge. Yeah, sure it came from the factory that way. :rolleye:

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It's no different than if Epps had called the RCMP and said, "We have a Ruger 10/22 that has been modified to shoot full auto. Is it prohibited?"

But if any of the hysterics are losing their poo because they own a 12 gauge I'd be happy to help. Please PM me and I'll take that scary gun off your hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

I am guessing Blair and the rest of the Lib Government are loving this distraction...... lots of energy focusing on shotguns and not so much on the guns actually banned....

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I doubt it. Its made them look like even bigger idiots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blasted_saber

I doubt it. Its made them look like even bigger idiots.

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Not to the general public....I think this is turning out to be a good thing for them...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

I am guessing Blair and the rest of the Lib Government are loving this distraction...... lots of energy focusing on shotguns and not so much on the guns actually banned....

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X2-it is so convenient panic,it raises a question-is it by accident.....or

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

Could this thread get any more ridiculous? Like Dad used to say "Boys,boys,boys,enough already,get the hell outside and play,will ya....NOW".

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Covid induced 'Chicken Little' syndrome HaHa..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

I am guessing Blair and the rest of the Lib Government are loving this distraction...... lots of energy focusing on shotguns and not so much on the guns actually banned....

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Funny you said that. I was thinking the same. Sneaky DIVERSION!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trailblzr

Funny you said that. I was thinking the same. Sneaky DIVERSION!

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A good politician will take advantage of any situation even if it was their fault to begin with.... Whats a politicians way....Always spin it, use it in a way to make it work for you. The truth doesn't matter, perception does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fratri

I am guessing Blair and the rest of the Lib Government are loving this distraction...... lots of energy focusing on shotguns and not so much on the guns actually banned....

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With the RCMP taking shotguns out of the equation,that leaves Blair and Trudeau with their a**es hanging out with no further diversion. They're in it,now,with this bogus OIC,right up to their lyin' eyeballs.

If anything, I think it could be argued the entire affair could be to deflect from Covid failures. But while not doing great on that file. They don’t need to change the channel.

For me anyways, trying to gauge where they are at, is Blair running to Twitter. If they aren’t stressing about it, talking points in the media.

Why try to put out a fire if your not worried about the fire? And the fact is he gas lighted them.

Quote:

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Quote Originally Posted by Badenoch View Post
Let's look at that Epps video a little closer.

The Epps measurements were .692" at the choke and .818" at the bore's widest point for a .13" difference. The standard constriction of a 12 gauge full choke is .030" while the tightest turkey choke I could find is .060" meaning the choke on the Epps shotgun is over twice the constriction of the tightest choke on the market.

The question it raises for me is how long the Epps gunsmith spent reaming that barrel. A .818" bore is larger than a 10 gauge and is closer to an 8 gauge. Yeah, sure it came from the factory that way.

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Back before removable choke tubes,
A knowledgeable gunsmith could take any shotgun barrel that had a fixed modified choke or I.C. and by reaming out the barrel behind the fixed choke by a few thousandths of an inch , for an inch or more in length, open up/increase the inside dia.
This causes the shot charge to open up while in the barrel, then it is choked down again by the fixed choke, this is called a "jug choke" and was done quite often for guys that wanted a tighter choke than what they had .
This is possibly what had been done with the old Iver Johnson single shot shotgun that they measured at Epps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaycee

Back before removable choke tubes,
A knowledgeable gunsmith could take any shotgun barrel that had a fixed modified choke or I.C. and by reaming out the barrel behind the fixed choke by a few thousandths of an inch , for an inch or more in length, open up/increase the inside dia.
This causes the shot charge to open up while in the barrel, then it is choked down again by the fixed choke, this is called a "jug choke" and was done quite often for guys that wanted a tighter choke than what they had .
This is possibly what had been done with the old Iver Johnson single shot shotgun that they measured at Epps.

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The nominal 12 gauge bore is .729. The Iver Johnson in question had a muzzle constriction of .692 meaning it already had a .037 constriction aka full choke. What it has now according to Epps is a bore of .818 meaning a muzzle constriction of 0.126 or more than three times the constriction of a standard full choke and over twice the tightest turkey choke. Not sure I would want to shoot a steel load through it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Badenoch

The nominal 12 gauge bore is .729. The Iver Johnson in question had a muzzle constriction of .692 meaning it already had a .037 constriction aka full choke. What it has now according to Epps is a bore of .818 meaning a muzzle constriction of 0.126 or more than three times the constriction of a standard full choke and over twice the tightest turkey choke. Not sure I would want to shoot a steel load through it.

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It would still be safe to shoot lead shot , steel is only requred for migratory birds.

To all the guys pi*&^%ing and moaning about their shotguns now becoming banned, when they were clearly NOT or ever intended to be part of this ban, how about you take a moment and get behind the real battle. The real battle here is NOT your shotguns, but the list of named guns on Bill's ban list. Do any of you even have a gun on that list? Are any of you even effected by this ban at all (outside of principle)? I would think not because if you were about to loose a named gun many of you would be loosing your S*&^T and would be more vocal about the real battle here and less about a fabricated fear mongering tactic to show how incompetent and this gun ban really is.

Yes, I have 2 guns on this list that are worth $3,500. One is restricted, one is non-restricted and I have another gun that I am dumbfounded that missed the list all together (for now). That is the battle we need to win because once they have the scary black semi's they are coming for all semi's (because they are functionally identical) then who knows where they will stop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 410001661

To all the guys pi*&^%ing and moaning about their shotguns now becoming banned, when they were clearly NOT or ever intended to be part of this ban, how about you take a moment and get behind the real battle. The real battle here is NOT your shotguns, but the list of named guns on Bill's ban list. Do any of you even have a gun on that list? Are any of you even effected by this ban at all (outside of principle)? I would think not because if you were about to loose a named gun many of you would be loosing your S*&^T and would be more vocal about the real battle here and less about a fabricated fear mongering tactic to show how incompetent and this gun ban really is.

Yes, I have 2 guns on this list that are worth $3,500. One is restricted, one is non-restricted and I have another gun that I am dumbfounded that missed the list all together (for now). That is the battle we need to win because once they have the scary black semi's they are coming for all semi's (because they are functionally identical) then who knows where they will stop.

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I agree, I own 2 (1 is mine and the other is the wifes) that are surprisingly not on the list yet and very very surprised those were not now banned. I was debating getting a stag 10 a few weeks ago but they had none in stock anywhere so I'm very happy for that fact cause it was a 2200$ gun if not more. It is the sad truth that our government would do this to us with absolutely no actual fact reasoning behind it. Next thing that's coming is Marshall law I'm sure and due to Covid 19 were all stuck at home anyways

I don’t know.
The fact is, the undeniable fact of the matter is.

It’s only because of Ed Burlew and those fear mongers, this came to light.
And it clearly, demonstrates the problems with the legislation and OIC.

As of today, right this moment. No-ones hand gun is banned. Don’t say boo, and anyone that does is chicken little?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBen

I don’t know.
The fact is, the undeniable fact of the matter is.

It’s only because of Ed Burlew and those fear mongers, this came to light.
And it clearly, demonstrates the problems with the legislation and OIC.

As of today, right this moment. No-ones hand gun is banned. Don’t say boo, and anyone that does is chicken little?

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You lost me when you said Ed Burlew was a fear monger. Is that really what you meant to say? If it wasn't for the lawyers blowing the whistle,the Liberals would have surely let it stand. When it comes to Liberals,firearms and a dubious OIC,I don't believe in coincidence.

That’s was “sarcasm” Trimmer.

because that is, exactly what I’m saying. If not for him......this would never have seen the light of day,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trimmer21

You lost me when you said Ed Burlew was a fear monger. Is that really what you meant to say? If it wasn't for the lawyers blowing the whistle,the Liberals would have surely let it stand. When it comes to Liberals,firearms and a dubious OIC,I don't believe in coincidence.

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Now there is a mouthful of the truth!

Anyone who has seen blair speak can see the lies that he spews without his puppet master there to feed him his talking points. Don't kid yourself, they want all your guns, they just have to work at them little by little.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...46a5d34f27.jpg

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

^^^ Exactly. Liberals want to disarm all law abiding gun owners. Not the criminals just the easy ones who won’t break the law. Look up the Australian gun control model. That’s what’s coming here.

https://www.oodmag.com/community/sho...=1#post1161703

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosquito

Realized I had missed this one on more of Bill Blair's ignorance or lies.... especially note there is NO definition of where the bore is measured..... may have banned 12 guage by accident (?) and won't admit their mistake.....( or did it on purpose to be used later?) Until there is a FEDERAL definition in the laws where?/max? the different police can decide and take to the courts... so MAYBE they did ban them!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBtn61F9d-M

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