neonics - science collapse disorder

[JBen]

Bingo Sharon.

I asked M earlier "what's the rush to jump off the deep end". Sound familiar with their rush to be

Leaders in green energy?

Not surprisingly David Suzuki is making noise on FB cheering it.
Buried within the comments are more comments linking more studies criticising the rush from other scientists essentially saying "not so quick people". Funny he has nothing to say about those.

Sound familiar (global warming)? Just because some say it's so.....and if we have learned anything from that idiocy as well....

Ms Wynnes rush to be at the front imo is blantantly obvious and that's cause for concern.

As things stand Id love to see anyone backing the decision/rush without alternatives voice opinions on what agriculture is supposed to do or use

/crickets

[JBen]

And lastly

Even though at this point my own thoughts/feelings is that there's enough to say neonic have a role and should be dealt with.

I am more than just a little skeptical of those who push/champion such things.

You'd think by now given the green energy disasters, or global warming.

People would have learned that even "science" isn't alway...upright, godly, without agendas, especially the left idealist or

Infallible.

[jaycee]

Looking at her alphabet soup means nothing. Auditing her bank account and revenue sources would be more revealing. Also her political and environmental leanings.

I have more faith in the findings of an Independent Research Scientist , than someone who is paid and works for the big chemical companies, they definitely will not find anything wrong with these neonics , as they would be cutting off The Hand That Feeds Them.
The independent researcher is facing very strong opposition from [ the intensive lobbying and pressure from the AGChem industry who are seeking to protect their profits.] in brackets from an article in todays paper.

[JBen]

You mean like Al Gore and some of his friends Jaycee?

No such thing as independent these days. Everyone gets funding, grant money etc etc. and everyone is beholden to someone, some side. Might also want to think about irrigation and mounting problems there (see California, EU, Aust) and while unrelated that to will impact the ability to produce.

Perhaps some might like to link some studies that suggest alternatives. How we are to feed millions of people, avoid losses, the price of produce sky rocketing and more?

Or do we just go back to DDT or agent orange?

Funny that. Do away with the noise from both sides. And when you ask the simple question.

What's the solution. None of "antis" ( lol can't help myself)

Have answers. Haven't thought it all the way through. Just ban this, ban that, not unlike GW, or Oil or GE.

Idealism. Utopia doesn't work in an imperfect world

[intothedeep]

What's the solution. None of "antis" ( lol can't help myself)

Have answers. Haven't thought it all the way through. Just ban this, ban that, not unlike GW, or Oil or GE.

Idealism. Utopia doesn't work in an imperfect world

Without weighing into the seed coating pesticide debate, I simply don't know the answer there, I just posted a link on page three of this thread of a farmer who is farming on an extremely large scale, 2000 acres in production, multiple cash crops and grasses and vegetables, and free range beef, pork, chicken. With no chemical fertilizer, pesticide, fungicide and only a small amount of roundup... Took him 5 years to get off the pesticide, 15 the fertilizer, but he's doing it! Of course billion dollar agri chemical makers want you spraying and spreading as much as possible, it's simple business.

He's beggining to get well known... If you spend the 1 hour and 15 minutes watching it, you'll get it... He is not an anti and makes more money per acre than conventional farmers. Again I'm sure it's not that easy to do, but it is being done... I realize talk is cheap, but here it is;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yPjoh9YJMk

[Hunter John]

I am sur Wynne and company have thought this through but how are they going to enforce these restrictions they put in place? Set up another agency? With many levels of government employees.. yep , sounds about right.

[fishermccann]

Dammed if they do, and dammed if they don't.

[yellow dog]

Without weighing into the seed coating pesticide debate, I simply don't know the answer there, I just posted a link on page three of this thread of a farmer who is farming on an extremely large scale, 2000 acres in production, multiple cash crops and grasses and vegetables, and free range beef, pork, chicken. With no chemical fertilizer, pesticide, fungicide and only a small amount of roundup... Took him 5 years to get off the pesticide, 15 the fertilizer, but he's doing it! Of course billion dollar agri chemical makers want you spraying and spreading as much as possible, it's simple business.

He's beggining to get well known... If you spend the 1 hour and 15 minutes watching it, you'll get it... He is not an anti and makes more money per acre than conventional farmers. Again I'm sure it's not that easy to do, but it is being done... I realize talk is cheap, but here it is;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yPjoh9YJMk

I completely understand that it can work BUT unfortunately not every farmer is a good farmer just like every carpenter isn't a good carpenter. Many farmers will take the easiest route to farm and get a crop in and harvest in the fall. Some will educate themselves and find alternative ways to go almost chemical free. Many growers, greenhouse managers, horticulturist etc. have for many years have taken an IPM approach (Intergrated Pest Management). Almost 30 years ago the IPM approach was part of my turf , greenhouse, arboriculture , fruit tree, ecology courses while attending college. It was driven in our heads to identify diseases, pests, weeds, fungus etc. so that we knew when to apply a chemical to control a potential problem. Majority of the time only spot spraying was necessary. But unfortunately many will not take the time to educate themselves and gain this knowledge that would save them thousands of $ every year and less harmful to our environment. Many farmers need to be held accountable and gain this knowledge and apply it. Last week I was out for a drive and i saw four different farmers spraying their fields on one of the most windy days. The chemical was not even hitting the crop below the boom sprayers.Money was literally blowing in the wind, what a waste ! That is one of the first things that had to be considered among many others when picking a day to spray that was taught to me when I took my pesticide course. If it's too windy you pick another day to spray. Humidity and temperature was another because of evaporation for full coverage. Another problem is seeing them apply chemicals with no personal protective gear. Complete stupidity, laziness and I wonder why many of the good pesticides, herbicides if properly used were banned.

[JBen]

Thats just it ITD, we live in an imperfect world (and that applies to many aspects).

Solutions, workable, practical solutions are needed and this anyways isn't something (imo) we can just leap off the edge on. See the GEA as an example. Few I think will argue the problems with coal/hydro/nuke…(Neonics its looking like). Doesn't mean we should rush into wind and create more/bigger problems.

Just for example, at its very simplest, while all this talk of helping farmers is great.

Anyone looked around at the economic/financial realities of today?
Im sure Ms Wynne won't mind taxing everyone another 1% or 2% so that a) she doesn't have find savings elsewhere to pay peter or B) promote her versions of idealism and provide funding, or subsidies or protections against losses…..

On a small scale I don't think, can't envision why farmers might not be able to( your definition of large scale is not mine ), but we aren't talking small scales here in NA, especially on "these" crops.

If we want to get sarcastic (aka realize this is tongue in cheek sarcasm). Next thing we know, we run into problems with corn crops and shortage, or the price goes through the roof as a result, and the green idealist start griping about the lack of corn for their bio fuel cars and we need to jump off the deep end for something else.

[intothedeep]

I completely understand that it can work BUT unfortunately not every farmer is a good farmer just like every carpenter isn't a good carpenter. Many farmers will take the easiest route to farm and get a crop in and harvest in the fall. Some will educate themselves and find alternative ways to go almost chemical free. Many growers, greenhouse managers, horticulturist etc. have for many years have taken an IPM approach (Intergrated Pest Management). Almost 30 years ago the IPM approach was part of my turf , greenhouse, arboriculture , fruit tree, ecology courses while attending college. It was driven in our heads to identify diseases, pests, weeds, fungus etc. so that we knew when to apply a chemical to control a potential problem. Majority of the time only spot spraying was necessary. But unfortunately many will not take the time to educate themselves and gain this knowledge that would save them thousands of $ every year and less harmful to our environment. Many farmers need to be held accountable and gain this knowledge and apply it. Last week I was out for a drive and i saw four different farmers spraying their fields on one of the most windy days. The chemical was not even hitting the crop below the boom sprayers.Money was literally blowing in the wind, what a waste ! That is one of the first things that had to be considered among many others when picking a day to spray that was taught to me when I took my pesticide course. If it's too windy you pick another day to spray. Humidity and temperature was another because of evaporation for full coverage. Another problem is seeing them apply chemicals with no personal protective gear. Complete stupidity, laziness and I wonder why many of the good pesticides, herbicides if properly used were banned.

Agreed, I'm sure it's not easy, anyone can play armchair farmer... But I sure bet Monsanto and Bayer and so forth don't want people finding out those techniques.