Peace in education

[Fishy Wishy]

FW good point.... but one thing needs to be addressed.... What is "teaching".... if you (not directed at anyone) think teaching is just about curriculum, you have never been in the classroom or school system.

Some truth there.

But part of the teacher's time and part of teaching is also dealing with "the bad apples" the kids acting out, instilling how kids are to act in a classroom etc etc.

IMHO, many of the problems with kids acting out is that they are not engaged. Why aren't they engaged? Perhaps they are bored or lost? Because they are not being taught curriculum at their ability level.

Our current system fails to engage students...and it is not for the teachers lack of trying. I truly believe no one would go into the field of dealing with other people's whiny snot-nosed, rude, disrespectful brats for any reason other than they feel it is their calling...again this is mostly directed at Elementary Teachers.

Highschool teachers not dealing with whiny, snot nosed, disease infested, puke bags, may have different reasons for entering the profession.

[Fishy Wishy]

Again, the answer is quite simple and has been mentioned numerous times in this thread.

The qualified teachers are out there... the field is overrun with them actually.

But instead of spreading the wealth and having more "fair" salaries for all and employing a greater number of teachers - thus shrinking class sizes and allowing the system to better cater to the various needs/levels of the students - the teachers who gain employment do their best to pad their own pockets and lock as many others out of the profession to ensure they receive their gross over-compensation.

Cap the max salary at $80,000 (which is absolutely ridiculous for the amount of work a teacher does over 9 months a year anyways), add 2 or 3 years to the required stay in each pay band, and put the savings into bumping the number of teachers by a solid 20%.

But, no teacher would ever go for that... because reducing class size and improving quality of education for the kids is NOT what they're about, no matter what any try to claim.

Actions speak louder than words, and for 25 years Ontario's teachers' actions have spoken volumes as to what their priorities are.

I wont argue that teachers' salary and benefits are way overboard. As is the case with Most PS.

but I feel teachers get picked on because they only work 9-10 months per year, and they are such a large group of PS, and you cannot make it through life without running into them...and I feel everyone has had at least one bad run-in with a teacher, as a student or a parent...then there are these strikes that affect the entire population with kids.

What would you have the teacher do for the remainder of the year? Do you want education handled by casual employees / part-timers / contractors? Perhaps we should run school year round...It's not like kids are home in the summer to do chores on the farm (well maybe some are but few). Perhaps we run a reduced day year round (so as not to burn out children) and expect teachers to put in a full day everyday, adding mandatory Extra-curricular, or more lesson planning. etc. ??????????????

Perhaps we should have them come on here and teach us all (me included) spelling and grammar and use of punctuation?

[JBen]

Highschool teachers not dealing with whiny, snot nosed, disease infested, puke bags, may have different reasons for entering the profession.

While they don't have to deal with those kids, I happen to know one lady/HS Teacher. The trouble makers, the "wing nuts", those that might drop out, those with specials needs ( she currently spends time with one kid with Downs, another Aspergers) are her favorites. Many of whom later in life are her friends.

Some here, might benefit from talking to her.


That said, there always 2 or 3 or sometime 4 and more sides to every story.

[Oddmott]

Meh, i have no interest in social reform (eliminating kids' summer vacations). I'm interested only in responsible management and a huge part of that is efficient budgeting.

We're short on active-teachers, and even shorter on funds to pay for more of them, or to maintain education infrastructure. Cut some of the old guard loose, reduce the pay of those left active, stretch the term spent in each pay band and cap salaries at a reasonable level for any undergraduate looking to work a 9-5 with 3 months off each year.

If teachers want to get active in the off months with extra education for themselves, or tutoring or running summer schools, etc... that's when there could be discussion about salary bonuses.

[JBen]

Hey M, obviously our thoughts are on similar pages. I wont trot out what I think is a "fair" number. A lot of factors would need to go into it, not the least of which is some comparison, at least on some level with respect to what "people" are getting in the "real world". Id have no clue. But yeah if the bands were spread out more and maybe the longer in the tooth one gets, the longer, slower the salary growth becomes (as we age our children move out, we need less blah blah blah)...then it caps out.
and cost of living for all PS in my opinion should be slightly less than inflation, to allow for economic downturns..

I mean who wouldn't want Aristotle, Steven Hawking and more teaching their kids at private school...But if you cant afford it.(and the province cant )...or that many of them because you only earn X, and need to save for retirement etc....

Does it make sense to me that a HS teacher with 15 years or whatever it is, earns 100k-125k (about 125-150k annualized or a full years work), has great benefits and a great Pension? Whats all that "worth" especially when so many don't even come within spitting distance of that?

Theres plenty of money to hire more teachers, if only they weren't "so greedy", so top heavy.
****

And while there are some teachers reading/participating (appreciated and takes stones given how POd parents are)....
none seem to like that idea. recognize that maybe if they weren't so richly compensated, class size could likely easily be at 20 and more that would benefit the children, not those compensated so very far out and away from what the typical parents earn (note dual).

[Sharon]

Reticent to post as I can't match you at the discussion level Ben - I'm a woman of few words- but to be honest......

3 years of University , 2 years of teacher's college , 3 years on a probationary contract for most boards and the person is not worth $50 000 a year?

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/...l_Board/Salary

[JBen]

Lol, please Sharon
Are you asking me if I think they should receive that much? I don’t know.

Do you know what it takes to get your CFA? What kind of stresses and yellow grass exist there? Do they have Pensions? The same kind of job security (patently not if you’ve read the news these past 8 years) and do they only work 9-10months of the year
50,000 annualised is roughly $60,000

About the same as a wet behind the ears CFA. Who works a full year, likely just 2-3 weeks vacation has little job security and based on percentages no Pension
http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/...t_(CFA)/Salary

But to answer your question as best I might Id say “likely” but would depend on many things, not the least of which is the employers ability to pay what they can afford.

A financial advisor. you know those people who could likely spin most teachers around in maths and other things, who are responsible for peoples money/futures? Lots here die young (heart attacks and more)

$50,000 and thats for a full year, without the same benefits/perks
http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/...ervices/Salary

As you can hopefully see comparisons and green grass stuff is largely useless.

But in our world we get laid off a lot (has happened to me), we often work insane hours, night at home, weekends ( depends on positions) many don’t have great benefits/pensions and we certainly don’t get 10-12weeks off year between X-mas and summer etc. In fact I had to work 12 years with current company before I got 5 weeks. Many in my shop work boxing day and other “stat” days because markets elsewhere are open and on and on.

If I was a teacher that (12 years) might have earned me two/three salary bands increases no matter what…... and I am required by law to do 12 hrs CE (Continuin Ed) and 30 PD (professional development) every cycle. If Im not mistaken many of things earn teachers raises as well, whether they use them or not. If I don’t do them I lose my liscences and my ability to work, they certainly don’t earn me 1 penny more

Yellow grass is yellow grass.
The question is have Teachers and most Unions and “PS” priced themselves, valued themselves too highly.
Good arguments yes, few if any no based on “reality” ( what its like for people outside PS) and the state of the province (Broke) and just how much of their revenue (120b) is spent on Salaries and benefits (and not “us”…the goods that benefit all) and the fact taxes for years have been going up up and up paying for it all.

[exgunner]

Reticent to post as I can't match you at the discussion level Ben - I'm a woman of few words- but to be honest......

3 years of University , 2 years of teacher's college , 3 years on a probationary contract for most boards and the person is not worth $50 000 a year?

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/...l_Board/Salary

What at about carpenter or most trades has 5 year apprenticeship, schooling ect work in all elements very strenuous and at times dangerous jobs none to little job security benefits if you are lucky. Tools and equipment and many are lucky to see 50000 per year. And that is working like crazy in the summer months when most want time off

[JBen]

Yep yellow grass ex gunner.

I'm not sure where the "disconnect is. Is it that many in public service think everyone earns 75 or 100k? Despite the mean DUO income being 75k and many people unable to save, don’t have Pensions and are worried about their retirements? Is it that some think if you don't earn 65k at the least, your an uneducated bum and don't do anything worth what they do?

Is it that some think every Uni grad earns North of 75 or 90k?And all those benefits?

Yellow grass? What about armed forces (what's the average there) what about XYZ. Any teacher want to pick up a rifle and do their job? Where would Teachers be without bankers, without retirement/estate planners, without carpenters, without electricians, without….A to Z?

To me it's fairly "straight forward". Private has gone down, taken it on the chin, the economy drives everything. Our standard of living. The dog wags the tail so to speak.

Everyone is seeing this/that/other exploding (taxes etc). The govt spends so much on PS salary/benefits they can't afford to spend on infrastructure, in fact have to sell crown assets, or hire Drs nurses, even more teachers..blah blah.

Does it mean Teacher’s need to be kneecapped? No, but…….Not many arguments that suggest they don’t have it really really good….relative to...

Remind me again why they are striking?

[fratri]

Yup fix the teachers pay and all our (Ontario) problems are gone..........................Those dam teachers, they are ruining everything....