Peace in education

[krakadawn]

Fratri, that's a pretty accurate representation as I understand it. You didn't mention the legal action launched by the unions holding our illustrious govt. culpable in breaking the previous legal agreement. Not that I support this either way but I believe they have merit in their case......time will tell.

[Oddmott]

Teachers on their last contract didn't receive any pay increases they actually lost 2 days pay... That's a pay cut, not much of one but a pay cut nevertheless... Not sure where you get that they received a 2.5% increase, maybe I just read your post wrong....

Regarding sick days and carry over.......
During the last contract, the government went in and took away what was originally earned..... The government never said hey your old contract is finished so your new contact will say "no more sick day carry overs".... Instead it said "hey your old contract expired, so we are going into your history and removing your sick days you teachers didn't use/accumulated".....
Let me try and explain it a little better with an example.... Its like you sign a 3 year contract for 10% vacation pay but after the contract expires the government says to you..... Hey this new contract will be opening up your old contract and we will be taking that 10% vacation pay away from you because you never spent it all.
That wasn't very fair at all for all the teachers that carried over their sick days....
Most teachers carried over their sick days in case (God forbid)they needed them before their long term disability kicked in....There was no financial buyout for teachers (at least in the last 20-30 years) for carrying over sick days. I should add the reason most teachers had days to carry over was because most teachers didn't take many sick days....

Now this new contract isn't about pay increases or benefits its about language....
Maybe some of you know more (first hand info) then what the media is saying, please inform the rest of us...

As JBen likes to say... it's about the 'optics'.

You speak about all those perks as if they are usual components of any/most compensation packages. They're not.

Pay Cuts? Puhleeze
While new bargaining may not have taken place to grant sector wide pay increases, teachers did in fact continue to get their yearly entitlements - ahem - raises.
Nowhere did any school board cut teacher pay. Want proof? Just look at the annual increase of teachers on the sunshine list... each year MORE teachers are on it, and each year/decade those teachers on it are making MORE than they did the previously. There are no pay cuts happening - no matter how anyone wants to spin it.
I'd gladly lose 2 days pay if it means i get a guaranteed raise EVERY YEAR no matter how bad my students are doing, how poorly my school is performing, etc.

Sick days
Pre-2012 public school teachers were getting 20+ sick days per year... Despite working only 10 months of the year.
Perspective - the average Ontario worker gets ZERO covered sick days per year and the average white collar private sector worker accumulates them on an average of 0.75-1.25 per month (9-15/year).

Sick days are sick days, vacation pay is vacation pay. You cannot compare them. Having an absolutely ridiculous windfall of sick days scaled back/eliminated, to get in line with reality is not at all the same as the gov't/employer eliminating vacation pay.

Teachers had banked sick days because they didn't take sick days? I call bunk.
Public sector has been identified as having an absolute epidemic of sick day abuse. Teachers and medicare staff are the two largest employee bases of the Ontario public sector and teachers were identified as one of the worst abusers of sick days across the board. They banked insane amounts of sick days because they were being given an insane amount of sick days.
Worrying about long term disability and other health concerns... sure they should, everyone should. But again, they've covered to the grave with the absolute best health benefits on the planet... so they simply won't get any sympathy from the common man in that regard.

Again... it's all about the optics. Teachers continue to cry that they're hard done by, completely oblivious to just how good they have it compared to the average Ontarian/Canadian.

When Ontario crashes - and it will, without doubt - Teachers are going to be up chits creek with a leaky boat and a punky paddle learning real quick just how tough life is when big bro isn't pampering their backside, ensuring they have more than needed in every single facet of life.

[terrym]

The very first thing Wynne did as Premier is "reopen" signed contracts and throw a half $ Billion at the teachers.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...n-auditor-says

This was confirmed by the AG's report. Enrolment is dropping and cost of education is rising. The "grid" is a raise anyway you try and spin it so yes they have been getting raises regardless of what they say.

[fratri]

As JBen likes to say... it's about the 'optics'.

You speak about all those perks as if they are usual components of any/most compensation packages. They're not.

Pay Cuts? Puhleeze
While new bargaining may not have taken place to grant sector wide pay increases, teachers did in fact continue to get their yearly entitlements - ahem - raises. (No, pay freezes went into effect, no raises sorry you are mistaken)
Nowhere did any school board cut teacher pay. (The government removed two school days, no pay for those two days so teachers went home with less pay for the year, that's less money-pay cut not more money) Want proof? Just look at the annual increase of teachers on the sunshine list... each year MORE teachers are on it, and each year/decade those teachers on it are making MORE than they did the previously. There are no pay cuts happening - no matter how anyone wants to spin it.
I'd gladly lose 2 days pay if it means i get a guaranteed raise EVERY YEAR no matter how bad my students are doing, how poorly my school is performing, etc. (You sound bitter)

Sick days
Pre-2012 public school teachers were getting 20+ sick days per year... that is correct.... government signed contract, that is what they were offering to sign on the dotted line....you would have been a fool to turn that down.....Despite working only 10 months of the year. I think if you take all the holidays into account its more like 9 months...
Perspective - the average Ontario worker gets ZERO covered sick days per year and the average white collar private sector worker accumulates them on an average of 0.75-1.25 per month (9-15/year).

Sick days are sick days, vacation pay is vacation pay. You cannot compare them. (that scenario was given to you as an example only) Having an absolutely ridiculous windfall of sick days scaled back/eliminated, to get in line with reality is not at all the same as the gov't/employer eliminating vacation pay.

Teachers had banked sick days because they didn't take sick days? I call bunk.
Public sector has been identified as having an absolute epidemic of sick day abuse. Teachers and medicare staff are the two largest employee bases of the Ontario public sector and teachers were identified as one of the worst abusers of sick days across the board. They banked insane amounts of sick days because they were being given an insane amount of sick days. I know a lot of teachers that do not use any where near their total amount of sick days.....
Worrying about long term disability and other health concerns... sure they should, everyone should. But again, they've covered to the grave with the absolute best health benefits on the planet... (it is not, my dad -retired construction worker local ? has it better but its still pretty good) so they simply won't get any sympathy from the common man in that regard.

Again... it's all about the optics. Teachers continue to cry that they're hard done by, completely oblivious to just how good they have it compared to the average Ontarian/Canadian. I don't think too many teachers are complaining about their income....

When Ontario crashes - and it will, without doubt - Teachers are going to be up chits creek with a leaky boat and a punky paddle learning real quick just how tough life is when big bro isn't pampering their backside, ensuring they have more than needed in every single facet of life.

Ontario won't crash because of teachers pay, Ontario will crash because of poor managing practices by our government....

[Oddmott]

Ontario won't crash because of teachers pay, Ontario will crash because of poor managing practices by our government....

Not disagreeing with you there. But the only PS folks that will be laid off or have their compensation cut drastically and immediately will be teachers and gov't admin.

Medicare, first responders and certain infrastructure providers will all be placed/protected ahead of teachers when the crash comes and the hard choices are made.

As for your dad a construction worker having a better benefit package... highly unlikely.

Teachers have an extended health-care plan that is 100-per-cent funded by the employer and dental plan funded 94 per cent by the employer. They also have group life insurance coverage, with the first $35,000 of coverage paid by the board and any additional coverage paid by the teacher.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle6015968/

The extended part of that health-care plan that is 100% funded by employer is untouchable by any private sector group insurance plan.

And yes, sorry, but PS employees and PS unions (not only teachers, but teachers are the 2nd largest group within the PS sector, behind only gov't clerical & admin workers) are the largest single contributor to Ontario's current debt load. They've been wasting our tax dollars through direct and indirect abuse for going on a half-century. It had to catch up to them/us sooner or later.

And, admittedly, I am a tad bitter. Originally as a high school and college student that had to put up with a constant string of strikes from over-entitled teachers that negatively impacted my education and wasted my time and my money. And now again as a young father who sees the same crap happening by a bunch of over-entitled teachers that can't ever just work, which is going to affect my kids' education.

Good lord, enough is enough. Can you imagine if every other industry (public or private) went on strike as much as our teachers? Nobody would ever work. Thankfully, the majority of our workforce (barely) is still private sector, and adult enough to buck the hell up and most of the time just deal with the fact that work is WORK, not always gravy.

[JBen]

Fatri theres more I might add but Oddmott covered one part.

Please explain how teachers have had their salaries frozen when in Markam alone
2013: 443 on the sunshine list
2014: 565 on the sunshine list

No freeze there.
****

In education, 565 elementary and secondary teachers, principals, superintendents and administrators at the York Region District School Board earned more than $100,000 last year. An increase from 443 people last year.
Ken Thurston, the public school board’s director of education, raked in nearly $294,000, up from his salary of $268,000 last year.
The York Catholic District School Board also recorded more people, including teachers, program co-ordinators, department heads and psychologists in the $100K club.
However, Susan LaRosa, director of education and secretary of the board, reported the same salary as she had in 2010, about $225,500.

THis is just Markham. And this is just scratching the surface.


565 people from 443 last year
plus 27%

Ken Thurston saw his salary go up 9.7%
What world do these people live in..Most tax payers are lucky to get 1.75% these days

565 x $100,000 (and this doesn't include benefits or Pensions) = $56,500,000
Now, just for illustrative purposes, lets say those 565 man upped, realized that compared to the mean family earning a total of 75,000 without pensions, they are in another world.

And trimmed a whopping 2% ($2,000 each)
$56,500,000 x .02 = $1,130,000 saved
Enough to hire/pay 20 Teachers at $50,000.

http://www.yorkregion.com/community-...unshine-list-/

Here's Hamilton
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...100k-1.1359492

Have a read and this is why arbitration isn't the answer either.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sunshi...down-1.2592793

And as for that Elementary teacher, no it's not an error. Cant find the article in the press about him/her but it's out there if you care to search.

Of coarse its always so much easier to look anywhere but internally.

[JBen]

Wont crash because of teachers pay and benefits?
Don’t be so sure, that mismanagement you rightfully source, includes the cost of PS.

Seriuosly. every year the province rakes in 120 billion.
55% of that goes to PS Compensation
10% of that is debt payments (what happens when interest rates rise or we get downgraded?)

Regardless, it leave about 35% for the goods.

And they have added about 200billion in debt. WHy?
because the cost of govt takes 55% of 120billion each year.

Maybe economics 101 should be added to the curriculum.

[werner.reiche]

Ontario won't crash because of teachers pay, Ontario will crash because of poor managing practices by our government....

That's what they said in Greece. Each little sector saying 'the problem isn't me'...
Google "Greece financial crisis" if you want to see where Ontario is going - only we don't have Germany/Britain/EU to bail us out.

In other news, 27 nurses at CHEO were let go today (yes for real) and the hospital is taking measures to reduce the number of children brought in to the ER (also for real). I guess the advice they used to give, "if you're not sure, take them to CHEO to see a doctor" is not being given to new parents anymore.

[werner.reiche]

Not disagreeing with you there. But the only PS folks that will be laid off or have their compensation cut drastically and immediately will be teachers and gov't admin.

Medicare, first responders and certain infrastructure providers will all be placed/protected ahead of teachers when the crash comes and the hard choices are made.

Disagree oddmott. 27 cheo nurses got their notices yesterday. Haven't heard of any teacher layoffs yet. Health care always gets hit hard because health care workers, well most of them are "caring people" and they tend not to be very militant with their strikes.

[werner.reiche]

One bit of BS with the handling of the teachers rotating strikes... Teachers province wide pay into strike funds and then they strike by region allowing teachers in those regions to draw on the combined strike fund reserve province wide. When those teachers settle, the settlement is used as a benchmark province wide. This is a bastardisation of the use of a strike, but it works well for the union.

What the province should be doing is negotiating province-wide with the teachers and if any board goes on strike, all the others get locked out. That will level out the bargaining table - when a strike which benefits all teachers hurts them all as well.