Peace in education

[JBen]

No doubt the boards need to be picked apart and reformed as well BC.

#1 arbitration, while that might be the easiest and more efficient solution, arbitrators rarely have the backgrounds, skill sets and knowledge. For illustration just look at all the various problems Ontario is now plagued with as a result of many things. It took Don Drummond a full year to go into a fair bit and attempt to find workable solutions. Shame few listened to him including the Liberals and Unions when they had the chance.

#2 I fully and utterly agree with , the Unions likewise need to be kicked out of politics permanently as well.

#3 Yup, I suspect a lot of fat and redundancy might be found with the boards

#4 And stakeholders, aka parents/public.

The problem is we have to deal with the here and now.
~The state of the province and its coffers.
~The economy, unemployment (includes what grads run into after spending 10s of thousands on useless post degrees)
~Many other problems just as pressing. Be it healthcare and needs there, infrastructure and more.
~At some point someone with some backbone does need to analyze total compensation levels. Not so much from a green grass perspective but from “reality". This topic has been beaten to death so let’s not but its pretty well established there over the years a fairly large “premium”, wage gap has been created. Many say as much as 25% (Right wing Fraser Institute) but even if its only 15%……….

So how do we narrow it, get it somewhere “equitable”.

Hard truth, inescapable truth of the matter is.
~The mean duo income in Ontario is $75,000. The Sunshine list is part of the “1%”..Well 10% anyways and that doesn’t include their Pensions.

~The majority, vast majority of those (the working stiffs of Ontario) do not have Pensions

~The majority of those, do not and cannot save.
Why?

Easy answer is to blame them for living beyond their means. But then again when you lose
45% to taxation (more if your above the mean)
42% to housing, food, clothing (life)

Doesn’t leave a lot of disposable income.
**************

[Rugger]

Next, no more banking sick days such that a teacher can retire and turn in hundreds of day of sick time for cash at their highest salary rate... more money.

I'm pretty sure that's already gone, I think it was one of the things that miguinty did to tick teachers off just before he bailed.

Do you have any idea how the teachers in Florida were evaluated? That's the issue I always run into going down that road. Teacher performance is not easy to objectively evaluate.

[terrym]

I find it interesting how teachers seem to feel testing is ineffective. Especially when they may be judged. Testing is the backbone of the education industry. They themselves passed tests all through the process to qualify. Many times standardized tests. They themselves test students throughout the year. All professions use testing as a means of certifying. You can't get a drivers license or hunting license without certified testing. Many trades and professions actually need to keep recertifying after a period of time. Virtually all school boards use testing as the benchmark for advancement. Why is the EQAO so detested and written off by unionized educators? As a parent I very much want to know how my child scores as well as how she rates Provincially as a benchmark. The reason is results reflect on the quality of education provided, and that is not acceptable to providers.

[krakadawn]

You're correct Rugger, 3 years ago contracts were stripped under a new Ontario law. Teachers have not had a contract since then. My other half is a teacher so I see the communiques that are shared from the Unions. I'm not a great lover of unions but I can see what they are currently fighting.
The government came to the table with further reductions and stripping items out of their previous contract.....that's not going to go well for any employee group especially when our illustrious govt sees fit to give the OPP an 8.5% raise over 3 years....ditto our firefighters and ditto our local workers. The only thing offered was further reductions NOT additions so I don't think there are many other employee groups out there that would accept this. Take a look at Hydro one, and any other employee group for comparison.

I hate to see any form of striking whether it's walk outs or work to rule but our current and poorly run govt lead by a weak leader is creating this situation. By the way some of the responses you have heard from Liz Sandals are out right lies especially about who walked from the table.

Local Boards of Education used to manage this situation very well, they determined local tax rates as far as the education component went, they negotiated with their employees but along came Mike Harris with his great idea of stripping their power, this situation started going down hill long before McGinnty/Wynne took over and they sure haven't corrected things either.

So how could this have been avoided...perhaps a modest cost of living increase even if not the same as OPP/firemen since there has been nothing but stripping in recent years.

I doubt there is anyone here that would respond favourably to wake up and find your employer taking away salary, sick days, health benefits etc without responding to this.

Our govt has created this problem and I'm not sure they can or want to fix things so time to lay some heavy blame on the Sandals/Wynne team and your local MPP .

[buckchaser]

I find it interesting how teachers seem to feel testing is ineffective. Especially when they may be judged. Testing is the backbone of the education industry. . They themselves passed tests all through the process to qualify. Many times standardized tests. They themselves test students throughout the year. All professions use testing as a means of certifying. You can't get a drivers license or hunting license without certified testing. Many trades and professions actually need to keep recertifying after a period of time. Virtually all school boards use testing as the benchmark for advancement. Why is the EQAO so detested and written off by unionized educators? As a parent I very much want to know how my child scores as well as how she rates Provincially as a benchmark. The reason is results reflect on the quality of education provided, and that is not acceptable to providers.

You need to do some more research terrym. Standardized testing is criticized as ineffective by the vast majority of educational research out there. It tests other things (e.g. cultural background, socioeconomic status, parental involvement) just as much as it tests what it is intended to. As I previously mentioned, it also encourages teachers to 'teach to the test". This results in a very narrow educational approach where creativity, teamwork, and "thinking outside the box" are marginalized - all key skills in the modern world. Our current high school literacy test is a classic example. It's an extremely expensive test that is redundant - that money could be spent much better elsewhere.

Teachers are already 'tested". The performance review system (although often criticized here by people who have no idea how it works) has become much more stringent in recent years. It's an extensive process with teachers having administrators sitting in on several classes, having to provide evidence/exemplars of student work, and a host of other things. In my opinion, it's a system that (if properly implemented) is going to expose poor teachers pretty quickly.

[terrym]

Having someone sit in the class to evaluate a teacher is beyond ridiculous. Does anybody really think a teacher is going to act naturally with a person sitting in the corner with a clipboard? I remember that same process as a kid and it was a joke. Like we had a different teacher that day. Hell they even dressed differently..LoL. As for all the edu-biz groups who agree that standardized testing is BS somehow it is still around and still used. Obviously some educators see value. If they teach "to the test" that is clearly their decision to do so as they have a mandated curriculum to provide, if it really has no value why would they even care about it and it's results? If you want to really evaluate a teacher put a camera in the room and don't tell them when it's on. That will give you a true picture of what goes on every day. My child had a teacher in gr 5 that didn't belong in the profession. She actually flipped out so bad once she threw a text book through a ceiling tile. She literally picked a different child every week and bullied them relentlessly to the point of making them cry. She made the mistake of targeting my kid. That very day I had her sitting in front of me and my wife and let her have it with both barrels. When she denied her behavior i pointed to the damaged ceiling tile which was clearly visible still and she nearly had a stroke. She was close friends with the Principal and the year he got transferred out her protection disappeared and she became a new person. She was notorious in that school yet was protected. So, clearly whatever system of performance evaluations existed weren't very effective. That is a worst case scenario. The reality is the majority of the teachers we have had teach our 2 kids have been great and I always made a point of telling them so and thanking them. But let's not kid ourselves and deny this is a profession that has union protection of deadwood and ineffective teachers also. One of my childhood buddies who I hunt with is a teacher as is his wife. My best friend has 3 sisters who teach and 2 brother inlaws who teach. My daughter is in university in a ConEd program. My wife ran the parent council for years when our kids were in grade school. I don't look at it with rose colored glasses.

[terrym]

Local Boards of Education used to manage this situation very well, they determined local tax rates as far as the education component went, they negotiated with their employees but along came Mike Harris with his great idea of stripping their power, this situation started going down hill long before McGinnty/Wynne took over and they sure haven't corrected things either.

.

My kids weren't even born when Harris was in office. We have had a Liberal government in power for what 13 years now which included majority mandates. Anything and everything that is in place now is solely their responsibility, nobody else's.

[mosquito]

Those 4 above are a good start... but just a start and as for Standardized testing, so what if it includes culture etc. this is a multicultural country and there need to be some standards so it looks ridiculous to think it is a problem. Teacher testing may help some but teachers need to be taught better how work with the kids, learning styles etc and to do more than hand out a paper, give an example, give some work and ignore the class the rest of the period (a description of most of my daughters high school teachers).

In Grade 3 my daughter wasn't doing good in school so we switched her into a Montessori school, what a difference! The days were longer, the teacher stayed one night a week to "tutor" and best of all there was discipline and structure in the classroom. 2 years later for Grade 6 due to several issues we tried putting her back in the public school. She had learned discipline and structure and was honours from then on but we had to get a tutor because some of the high school teachers were just pushing paper and no explanations according to her. The tutor was twice a week and usually just explained the material again and supervised some questions and she came out smiling and "smartified". This year she is finishing her foundation year at a UK University, was accepted to all 5 Universities she applied to for for 2nd year.

My son is in an enhanced program... and in Grade 9 is still often bored and has been bored at home for almost a week and a half! For Grade 8 they had a good teacher until about February. The teacher kept good discipline, challenged them and gave quite a bit of home projects (not just one night homework) and talking to the parents all the kids were motivated and like her... sometimes if a kid forgot his homework or didn't do it he would get a thwack (sons words) on the forehead (using thumb and finger snap like you would for shooting a wad of paper) and if they didn't put away their chair they had to stand for part of the morning. According to my son they deserved it too... BUT once the new young principal found out about it she was suspended for the remainder of the year (no explanation to the parents until year was almost over) and a new teacher brought in and student motivation was gone, challenging work mostly gone and according to other parents their kids just like mine had no enthusiasm and interest anymore.

Now to my points.

5) The teachers need some flexibility and accountability to the students, a good friend of mine is a high school teacher and for the first few years would stay after and help kids if asked.... until told by the dept. head NOT to because he was the only one doing it and others didn't want to. Doing the tutoring once a week for an hour after school will allow better time for the teacher who needs the help, what kind of explanations they need and better connect them to the kids without the embarrassment of having the whole class know they didn't understand. Either that or extending the school day by about another hour, my son is home at 2:30 in the afternoon.

6) Discipline, the grade 8 teacher had years of experience, was considered by all that I talked to that year and from earlier to be one of the few great teachers and was suspended by what I consider an idiot. Heck the main reason we moved my daughter out of the public system was that she was getting no structure or discipline in the teaching and classroom in Grade 3. When you hear from the teacher that my daughter and her friend spend alot of the class time chatting and giggling and she didn't move them apart because "they are just little girls" that is ridiculous in a learning environment. They had recess, lunch etc. to chat and needed a simple bit of discipline which is essential in life and to accomplish anything yet were taught none. Once she got in Grade 4 in Montesorri she had to sit up straight at their desk until released after the bell, had homework and spent an hour with that teacher for extra help to catch up where she was supposed to be, that little bit of discipline and prioritization has turned in to years of Honours and her doing good in University.

7) In the Montessori's for JK and SK both my kids learned rapidly, had some homework and enjoyed it, one was adding 3 digit numbers and the other multiplying single digits in Kindergarten, needless to say they both thought the next few years in public school were super easy. There needs to be a better look at how to teach subjects at the elementary level and better challenge the students. People are more worried about being politically correct nonsense than helping the kids by far. These are the ages where I think the biggest impact is possible/


oh and I could go on, funny, my Sikh neighbour is keeping his kids in Montesorri until after Grade 4 and was laughing that his son is in the Catholic high school because he thought it was a better organized and disciplined system and they won't go on strike they just wait until the public get their contract and they are given the same with out the strikes.... interesting.

In many ways our public education system for the most part seems intent on creating barely educated mediocre undisciplined adults but I know the Liberal party won't have the guts or brains to face the challenge or try to improve it and unions will fight any changes.

[JBen]

My kids weren't even born when Harris was in office. We have had a Liberal government in power for what 13 years now which included majority mandates. Anything and everything that is in place now is solely their responsibility, nobody else's.

THis is part of what I keep coming back to. It amazes me

1) Mike Harris did things. Some good, some bad. Why? Why did Mike Harris campaign and win on the “common sense” revolution.
Answer: Bob Rae, overspending, gluttony in PS, the social contract and Rae Days. So if your going to blame the devil Mike Harris….BLAME the people who created the mess in the first place he had to try and fix.

2) The Liberals have had 15 years to try and fix it…They made many worse. WHy
See their only concern being winning Union support, and then Elections with the backing of the Unions.
***************
Local Boards of Education used to manage this situation very well, they determined local tax rates as far as the education component went, they negotiated with their employees but along came Mike Harris with his great idea of stripping their power, this situation started going down hill long before McGinnty/Wynne took over and they sure haven't corrected things either.

30 years worth of problems.
3 different admins (NDP, CON and LIB)
ONE COMMON DENOMINATOR

And just as first Bob Rae finally had to get it under control and then Mike Harris

History is repeating itself today. If you “upset” because there isn’t $ for education, blame…..Or if your upset because there isn’t $ for healthcare, or Nurses, or XYZ…..

Amazes me that those on left, or the LIbs or the Unions always blame MH or anyone but themselves.

[bushman]

My kids weren't even born when Harris was in office. We have had a Liberal government in power for what 13 years now which included majority mandates. Anything and everything that is in place now is solely their responsibility, nobody else's.

Come on now Terrym , you know everything is Mikes fault. Even road clearing or lack of it,20 years later is still his fault. And whatever isn't his fault then becomes Harpers fault. That's just common sense. God forbid any blame ever be laid on a liberal. They never make mistakes, we all know that. It's just a misconception that us " stupid " common folk dream up that, a good honest liberal would ever be in the wrong.