Peace in education

[JBen]

Just to clarify I'm in no way supporting pay hikes for teachers. And I'm definitely not sticking up for the union until they start working (even a little bit) to bolster the integrity of the profession and as rightly pointed out take a little reality check. I know they are always accused of being in the pocket of the Liberals but none the less they manage to spend months- years arguing with all walks of government, NDP, Conservative and Liberal.

On the other hand I don't think its fair for someone to say "Teachers have never done a day of real work in their lives" when the person saying that has never done a day of teaching in their lives.... and tends to have and image of teaching that is totally out of date and/or based on "I heard about this one teacher who..."

Now most of the teachers I know are still fairly new to the profession and spend hours and hours developing lessons and putting in extra time coaching, tutoring and mentoring. Perhaps once they have all of their lessons perfected and have enough seniority to not have to worry about being asked to teach different subject each year then it becomes the walk in the park everyone thinks it is.

Now is it possible for a teacher to teach only the bare minimum school day hours, get the special ed, low number "unteachable" students and play movies every day and make up believable marks? Of course it is and I'm sure there are some "teachers" who do something like that. However this is not the bar we should set or expect of our teachers and I think it should be part of the union's job to make sure this is not tolerated as opposed to defending them.

/clap

Well said Rugger. It bothers me (the infamous labeled teacher hater) when people put blinders on. Sure fine, there are teachers who take advantage, abuse things, whatever...............That is true of any walk of life. Theres lazy ones, bad ones, good ones and great ones. I know one who cares so much about her students she goes way beyond. And in fact many years post HS graduation many of the students who weren't teacher pets or A students (aka the helions, trouble makers, ones that might have dropped out) are her friends, that how much they admire her.

Speaks volumes.

By the same token the opposite holds true though Rugger. "Reality" is these days, things teachers often trot out as "well we have to put up with X"....Or we work evenings marking, or Sundays prepping.

Welcome to most peoples lives. We all have yellow grass. Just as I couldn't put up with stuff and be a teacher....I bet there aren't many that could handle the stress/yellow grass of my industry.
*************

I blame the Liberals and the Unions for this. Numerous things/reasons.

And frankly I do find it fairly offensive that having made the bed, having reaped benefits, worked tirelessly to see this govt gets elected time, and time and time again.

Now that its coming home to roost, and they are grumbling about not being able to provide the education or classroom enviroments our kids deserve because theres no money.

DEAL WITH IT, its what you helped create, it's what you wanted, it's what you campaigned for, voted for.

And DONT hold our children hostage, yet again for a mess you..........

[JBen]

and just incase "you" = figure of speech

[Rugger]

Excellent point Mosquito.

Again , my point was that the gap presented between teachers and RN's seemed way bigger than it should be. I was trying to find some reliable Stats on "true" average pay. The workopolis article cites the Macleans article as the source and I can't find any reference to where (when) the Macleans numbers come from; I find it odd that the two numbers are the same....

the only other "stat" on average teacher salary is:

High School Teacher Salary in Toronto, Ontario (Canada)
The average salary for a High School Teacher in Toronto, Ontario is C$51,583 per year. Most people move on to other jobs if they have more than 20 years' experience in this field.

Salary	C$30,563 - C$91,008
Bonus	C$0.00 - C$3,973
Total Pay (?)	C$30,312 - C$91,055
Country: Canada | Currency: CAD | Updated: 2 May 2015 | Individuals Reporting: 207

From: http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/...fd6/Toronto-ON
And that seems absurdly low...

[Rugger]

And excellent points JBen.

Retirement at the age of 55 is a reality for few teachers. There was a glut hiring period (which is a big part of the problem JBen speaks about) early 2000's but outside of that it seems as though it takes years of supply work before being hired as full time (especially now). Also what is little known is that as soon as a teacher retires the loose all of their health coverage, often when it is most needed, another reason cited by teachers who hang on for a long time. (again speaks to entitlement of having been used to getting most of your med expenses paid for, for so long.... but)

[mosquito]

Excellent point Mosquito.

Again , my point was that the gap presented between teachers and RN's seemed way bigger than it should be. I was trying to find some reliable Stats on "true" average pay. The workopolis article cites the Macleans article as the source and I can't find any reference to where (when) the Macleans numbers come from; I find it odd that the two numbers are the same....

the only other "stat" on average teacher salary is:

High School Teacher Salary in Toronto, Ontario (Canada)
The average salary for a High School Teacher in Toronto, Ontario is C$51,583 per year. Most people move on to other jobs if they have more than 20 years' experience in this field.

Salary	C$30,563 - C$91,008
Bonus	C$0.00 - C$3,973
Total Pay (?)	C$30,312 - C$91,055
Country: Canada | Currency: CAD | Updated: 2 May 2015 | Individuals Reporting: 207

From: http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/...fd6/Toronto-ON
And that seems absurdly low...

That looks like teachers looking to move, once a teacher has seniority few will move until after retirement.

I also sited right from you article specifying the future average and here, right from the Toronto District School Board financial facts, the actual numbers are much higher than those.
http://www.tdsb.on.ca/Portals/0/Abou...te_May2014.pdf


Elementary Teachers
TDSB Average Salary and Benefits
$94,991

Provincial Funding
$91,850

Total Gap
$3,141



Secondary Teachers
TDSB Average Salary and Benefits
$98,039

Provincial Funding
$95,528



TDSB Average Salary Cost 2014/15
87,805

Benefit Cost
10,234

Total Cost
98,039

Or a provincial comparisons but it only has Min and Max not actual average
http://www.bctf.ca/uploadedfiles/pub...13-14brief.pdf



Taking the TDSB average cost 87,805/12 = 7317.08 then multiply bu the 60,000 OSSTF members. = $439,025,000

So a one month strike would save the province $439,025,000..... any bets on how much they Liberals will come in under budget?

[Rugger]

Wow, those are the numbers I was looking for...
That means that the VAST majority of teachers are at the high end of the pay scale, considering starting salary is around 50K.

And I'm betting that your monthly savings number is low because when OSSTF goes so do the supply teachers (different union) and that's got to be another 100K at least.

Edit:
Oh, and Werner, I stand corrected.

[fratri]

If I was rich I would do my job (well a good part of it) for free.... but then again I like my job...

Regarding pensions and benefits....
Teachers may have a good pension but my brothers job (construction sewer and water main union?) is better... Not only does he make some pretty good money, he can also retire when he reaches 30 credits.... Credits are years based on (not sure the exact number) of hours worked in a year.... He currently averages roughly 1.4 credits a year.... Right now he has accumulated 21 credits in 14 years.... so he can retire with full pension (which I believe includes his health benefits) in less than 9 years but more likely in 5-6.... Not bad at all.....

[fishy steve]

Taking the TDSB average cost 87,805/12 = 7317.08 then multiply bu the 60,000 OSSTF members. = $439,025,000

So a one month strike would save the province $439,025,000..... any bets on how much they Liberals will come in under budget?

and thats only teaching salaries... thats not even savings from hydro, water, school supplies and day to day operations... government is hoping for a strike, schools shut right down for the next 4 months, then give them what they want in september...

[duckduckgoose]

Wow, those are the numbers I was looking for...
That means that the VAST majority of teachers are at the high end of the pay scale, considering starting salary is around 50K.

Most teachers I know make more than I do with less education and less experience, but saying that, I think Mosquito's numbers say "salary and benefits". I don't know what my work benefits actually cost my employer, but I know that when they're budgeting me as an expense, they include my salary plus about 30k in benefits (again, I have no idea how this actually works out since my drug plan is capped at 5k and we don't have short-term disability coverage at my work). Anyway, if an average teacher's benefits and salary are 95k, then using how my employer budgets for me, it's not unreasonable to assume that the average salary not including benefits is 65k - maybe less because I bet their benefits are better - however, I don't know an actual teacher with a salary that is 65k or less...

[werner.reiche]

Most teachers I know make more than I do with less education and less experience, but saying that, I think Mosquito's numbers say "salary and benefits". I don't know what my work benefits actually cost my employer, but I know that when they're budgeting me as an expense, they include my salary plus about 30k in benefits (again, I have no idea how this actually works out since my drug plan is capped at 5k and we don't have short-term disability coverage at my work). Anyway, if an average teacher's benefits and salary are 95k, then using how my employer budgets for me, it's not unreasonable to assume that the average salary not including benefits is 65k - maybe less because I bet their benefits are better - however, I don't know an actual teacher with a salary that is 65k or less...

Re: your benefits - 30k seems awful high

General what your benefits include:
- employers portion of CPP (they pay 50%, you pay 50%)
- employers portion of your health/drug/disability/life insurance plan (if you have one)
- employers contribution to your pension (if you have one) or pension liability if it is a large company running its own pension fund
- other benefits - usually taxable (use of a vehicle, group gym memberships, etc)

Some employers (particularly those with hourly, not salaried employees) also include vacation pay as a benefit. So, if you're making 52K per year and get 3 weeks vacation - they count 3K as benefits. Not really accurate as they have already included it in your salary.