Pointing dogs and not training to sit

[ninepointer]

If you have introduced and trained your dog with release trap correctly, be it with NAVHDA, a good knowledgeable dog friend down the road its adapting to wild birds will go relatedly smooth. Most inexperience trainers allow the dog to get too close and establish a point with initial release traps exposure. When the dog acknowledges bird scent, the trap should be released and the dog made to whoa.

This a cornerstone of the West-Gibbons method. Pigeons (not chukars) and remote launchers in experienced hands can used to great effectiveness as BDH has described. Its how Kyle Warren (Paint River Setters) prepares his young dogs for ruffed grouse. From there they say it takes 200 wild grouse contracts for a dog to "get it". From what I've seen I believe it.

[vom Dufenshmirtz]

IT is overwhelming trying to find what info I think will work best for me. I think it will just end up being a trial and error system and we will see how things go...

Pick a training system and stick with it. As a beginner, you don't have the experience and the understanding to mix and match. A pair of experienced eyes is invaluable, reading a dog is art and science, so try to find a good partner/mentor.

Also, about planted birds. I just watched someone train an adult dog which was trained on planted birds only and to me the dog would be worst than useless for hunting wild birds.
In ON it's almost impossible to avoid planted birds in training, cause we don't have enough wild birds, but their use should be only as required in achieving set goals (finding and pointing birds vs steady to whatever).

[BSP1]

Some people want their dog to lock up and never move until released and to my understanding and from what I’ve seen that’s the “ NAVDHA way” Others want their dogs to relocate naturally. I’m in that group. My dog is a hunting dog not a FT dog and relocating naturally is what I want. Because a Ruffed Grouse, woodcock, Hun, Sharptail or pheasant doesn’t wait for you to get to the dog. They run and I want my dog to relocate on running birds. Which she does and does well for a young dog. Yes mistakes are made but those mistakes only teach her. She relocates just enough to keep in contact with the bird. All that goes against the NAVDHA way. So if you want a FT dog and to play games…. Train with NAVDHA. If you want a hunting dog get the dog on as many wild birds. Of course use Pigeons to train the basics but after that wild birds make a bird dog. The more the better of course. But even a few a weekend is still better than 100 pen raised chukar


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[ninepointer]

Pick a training system and stick with it. As a beginner, you don't have the experience and the understanding to mix and match. A pair of experienced eyes is invaluable, reading a dog is art and science, so try to find a good partner/mentor.

Also, about planted birds. I just watched someone train an adult dog which was trained on planted birds only and to me the dog would be worst than useless for hunting wild birds.
In ON it's almost impossible to avoid planted birds in training, cause we don't have enough wild birds, but their use should be only as required in achieving set goals (finding and pointing birds vs steady to whatever).

Great advice! Inevitably in any training system you will come to a point where you don't have the resources, space or equipment that the pro trainer does. This is where you need to get creative, find the work-arounds and tap into the advice and resources of others.

[fishhawk]

There is no problem with teaching a pointing dog to sit. The point is natural instinct bred into them. You just have to bring it out in them and show them why they want to point. Nothing better than real wild birds to do this and in the old bird rich days that was how it was done. Now a day's a combination of wild and pen raised will get the job done. Good flying wild barn pigeons are the best in my opinion as dog won’t be able to catch them. Use these planted to get the pup started, once it’s holding point shoot a few down on it. Then switch over to wild birds and don’t shoot any bumped birds. You will have yourself a fine grouse dog.

[trkyhntr21]

The worry was in teaching to sit before whoa work is that sitting comes very naturally for a dog to do and it is generally the first command that dogs learn , with some whoa training methods the dog would be experiencing some kind of external pressures in situational and possibly trainer induced and if already taught a sit command the dog may in some instances revert to a sit type of behavior to release the pressure . However depending on the temperament of the dog and how good of a trainer and the program in place its not an issue generally in a dog with a good introduction.
i have got both dogs who are trained to sit and some just to whoa both are valuable in getting to stop if the situation arises traffic , deer , etc.

[anglodrkns]

Thanks to everyone for the info. The general consensus seems to be that training to sit is not an issue. There may be a needed correction come proper whoa training but that it shouldn't be hard to do as long as it is done properly