Ontario 15% tax on foreign real estate buyers

[JBen]

Missing the point (s) a bit G.
As a "general" rule I'm not against capitalism and or investment leading to profits and growth...
But there are things that are needed. If we translate to stock markets, one of the most important aspects to an
effecient market is liquidity. Don't want to bore to tears but if interested do some reading on it.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/...hypothesis.asp

Liquidity. Without it, stuff happens. If there isn't enough volume the you get large bid/ask spreads. If one side or the other disappears you get crashes and/or runs. When there are nowhere near enough buyers, selling have to dump the price...Anything, a stock, a car, a person(service), widget, a house. is only worth what someone is willing to pay. Likewise when there are nowhere near about sellers, buyers have to pay out of touch with actual values (determined by many things, not the least are which are peoples incomes, economy and more) prices. As we are seeing with RE in the GTA and now surrounding areas.
In the stock market when there are not enough sellers, thats where people like us come in. We short sell (when you sell X, without owning X) tons, providing liquidity. We (our company was just a drop in the ocean, but I alone had a short book valued in the billions). So short selling steps in and provides "inventory" keeping things reasonably tame and efficient. These days whats known as high frequency trading also provides liquidity and volume.

These things and more contribute to efficient markets.
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Then we have so many discussions and threads and concerns about Johnny Q public and the middle class.
Its next to proven they are getting hammered by high taxation.......and.......stagnant wages.
So if the vast bulk of people over the last 30-40 years are losing ground with stagnant wages, meanwhile cost for this and that keep going up. And with housing exploding now......

In the last 5 years the cost of housing in the GTA has far, by far blown away peoples incomes and more.
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Then we have debt levels
And more.
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How is any of the above remotely "good".
Its only good if your sitting on a million dollar home and getting close to checking out.
Who cares about the devastation left behind and big problems coming when soooooooooooo many people who can't save 2 nickels..............
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The banks now are talking about farming out some risk ( using our terminology) but basically think sub prime back in the States in 2006. http://business.financialpost.com/ne...tial-mortgages

As for the GTA.
No problems really, but or if (maybe better way to phrase it).
The rest of the province hadn't been "forgotten".
In short everyone else after having helped build the GTA into a world class city, done this and that to draw investment, companies jobs, infrastructure, things like the 407 and CN tower and more and more....(Caribana funding, and more, and on and on) not to mention a number of big hospitals that draw a lot, both world class medicine and patients, all great for TO...Everyone else....Thanks people, we are rich sucks to be you.

Since when has it ever been a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket?
Would you argue that the Canadian Economy should rely 90% on Oil and ALBTA. If for the past 50 years Canada poured everything into ALTA........Oh sure its great if your n Albertan.......Everyone else? Would you argue "whats wrong with that"?

Well the GTA is to Ontario, what that would be to Canada. Or in some ways what the US is to the world.When the US gets a sniffle, we here, catch full blown colds.

So...if you don't think thats a good idea and most people for years and years have pushed/argued for Canada to get off the US Teet and diversify our trade/economy some.

/Look around the province
and yes, imo its past the GTA start carrying its "weight" given.........

Back to RE
We've screwed our kids G. And while housing in Paris or London maybe there, that occurred over centuries. This is over 10 years....light speed.

[fishermccann]

In the early 50's my grandparents thought my parents were nuts for moving to the far edge of Scarborough from Dufferin St. They thought it was sooo far away from the 'city'. There was only one bus route along Kingston Rd. at the time. No highway 401 only #2. Not like today with Go trains going to all the neighbouring communities. Your family was lucky to have one car. It used to take over an hour and a half by bus to get to the ex. My father said he had to move that far away to be able to afford a house. How is that any different than someone today moving to say Port Hope, Uxbridge, ( where my sister commuted from every day, to downtown) , or any other town within a reasonable drive where the prices are more sane ? The closer you get to downtown Toronto the more you pay, it has always been that way. Move out from that spot as far as you have to ,so you can aford your own home. You want to live within it's boarders, pay the price. Supply and demand. Maybe we are spoiled, or living in the past. Few ' average' persons in Europe own their own house, they rent.

[fratri]

In the early 50's my grandparents thought my parents were nuts for moving to Scarborough from Dufferin St. They thought it was sooo far away from the 'city'. There was only one bus route along Kingston Rd. at the time. No highway 401 only #2. Not like today with Go trains going to all the neighbouring communities. Your family was lucky to have one car. It used to take over an hour and a half by bus to get to the ex. My father said he had to move that far away to be able to afford a house. How is that any different than someone today moving to say Port Hope, Uxbridge, ( where my sister commuted from every day, to downtown) , or any other town within a reasonable drive where the prices are more sane ? The closer you get to downtown Toronto the more you pay, it has always been that way. Move out from that spot as far as you have to ,so you can have your own home. You want to live within it's boarders, pay the price. Supply and demand.

All the infrastructure that the city has (making it so desirable to live) has been subsidised by the rest of the Province/Country

[fishermccann]

Wrong and I hear that argument all the time. According to some, what is the 'gospel' of the Frazer Institute says that the GTA pays 24 BILLION more in taxes than it receives in government spending. Your welcome!

[JBen]

Wrong G?
Where are your "facts"? Or rather, other the FI what can you point at that would substantiate the FIs finding?
While I "generally" agree with the FI, I'm not stupid. Like Doctors can and will spin stats to show that guns are leading to a child a day ending up in ERs.......
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So lets assume you are correct.
The province takes in about 125b each year. Lets assume the GTA antes up 60% ( not suggesting this is the number, its just a number).
=75b from the GTA.
So your saying the GTA only receives 50b in Healthcare and Education each year?
lmao, you do know I hope where the vast majority of hospitals are?
Sick kids (who ket patients from all over Canada and the World) Do think that's Freeking free?


Princess Margaret.
Perhaps the best women hospital, not only in Ontario, but Canada and until recent years where people went for Cancer? But now having spent billions on Lakeridge health centre and Durham region Cancer centre ( Lakeridge is state of the art now)....where is Oshawa????
/side note. The Shots my GF will be getting cost $2,500 each Do you think thats free? And thats just the shots to boost her white blood cell count. Not the Chemo, not the radiation, not the surgeries, not support staff and services and more.....

Mount sanai? And so many more
lol come back to earth G.

Education?
Where are the majority of boards? Thats where most of the waste and gluttony is.
Where are the majority of teachers. Not long ago, the Sunshine list was published. The number of teachers in the province that gross (before benefits and Pensions) in the 416 alone the TDSB, was over 1,000. No other board came close
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Now I generally consider highways and such a bit of a wash. The 401 is only the busiest highway in North America. How much do you think that cost to A) build, B) widen (have you looked around) and C) Maintain.......and it only brings hundreds of millions of people, tourist, business, commerce and trade and more......Where? Ah yes, the centre of the Universe who thinks it's all that.

How much did the 407 cost? A few hundred Billion
How much did the 403 cost? Maybe similar
The Gardner and QEW?
The 427, 409, 410, DVP and 412?
How much has Go Transit Cost. The extension from Oshawa to Newcastle alone is getting billions, And thats just the putting in the track and stations, on that one line, to the east. How much did extending the 407 from markham to Oshawa cost? And in the next 4 years out to 115?
The TTC?
The CN Tower...Only draws billions of tourist......spending money where?
Scarborough LRT
Union to Pearson express
Pearson International
Soon Pickering Airport
And so very, very, very, very much more. past, present and future..
I suppose your right though and John Tory is screaming for road tolls because the GTA carries its weight.....
lmao


Not a chance in hell FI is taking that stuff into account, likely just what the province spend in services etc.

Now consider things like the Eaton Centre. While not publicly funded, why do you investors spent hundreds of millions or billions building just that.....See above.

The ACC and Skydome (public funded if I recall)...And what has just the SkyDome done for the GTA?

"Ontario is investing $31.5 billion over 10 years in transit, roads, bridges and highways, including about $16 billion for rapid transit in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area." So of the 31.5 billion earmarked for everything and everyone in Ontario the GTA is getting 50% in just rapid, green, clean transit................roads, bridges, highways?

Open your eyes Gord for a change. The evidence, the proof is in the pudding, whether its the blatant vote buying over the years and so much more. Like the economic wasteland everywhere outside the GTA, where jobs are few and far between and they certainly don't pay close the average of 97,000 (the GTAs single average income)......How much do you think it's cost everyone for all the Nuke Plants and Wind Farms.....Ever looked at Ontario from the moon at night? And thats just at night when the world is asleep.......Not a chance in Help the FI looked at and figured out a way to account for the beast that must be fed........Oh and on just that note. Doesn't Ms Wynne justify all those cost by claiming clean air saves us, billions in healthcare cost each year......
/looks at the GTA and smog,
So everyone in Ontario is helping to pay to clean your polluted city, that cost us billions and billions in respiratory problems (not to mention all the car accidents on the 401 and everything else, like Orange and air ambulance services, that all you need to do is look up in the air once a day to see one, flying in to one of trauma centres from god knows where). And on, and on and on.

But I suppose all that needs to be said on this "really"
300-350 billion debt
For all that the GTA does receive and has (past tense Gord, something the FI conveniently forgot to measure) and more (doubt they added money for Caribana, and this and that) received, that has made it the city it is.........

Greedy, self centred, thankless sons of britches, that don't give back. Don't understand that the reason you are sitting on a million dollar home today (hnd have a job that pays 100k, 200k, 400k or more) is because (all the above) and because obviously with 300b in debt......
Enough said.
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Aren't you the one that usually argues the rich and wealthy have to pay more.
Yep you are, until it comes time to face the prospect that includes you.
And the reason your wealthy.

Thanks Ontario, everyone in Ontario.
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Oh and healthcare G?
Perhaps you would care to explain why we have to travel to Oshawa for her initial mammogram, and the day surgery/biopsy and where would the lab be the produces the pathology be and all those highly paid people.....and then treatments and health many times each week....

When Lindsay Hospital is 10 minutes away.
and thats just her.


And further in terms of economic activity. If you compare say just Lindsay Hospital to LakeRidge health and spin off effects from hundreds of Doctors, Surgeons, Specialist, Nurses, various support services and so very much...."Good for Oshawa"...Lindsay, just that dump of a town where few.......
Ps one of our nieces is a Nurse. She lives in Durham region and works where?
Lake ridge health and Lindsay, pulling shifts at both....Why do you think Lindsay Hospital has to call in professionals from Durham region........and thenWant to guess which region benefits from her salary alone, where she spends her $$........which leads to what exactly?
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"get a grip"

[MarkB]

Here's things from my perspective:

- the tax will make foreign buyers think twice, probably look at other provinces ... Quebec?
- the supply will not increase ... in fact, it may go down once the tax kicks in, if people think it will have a negative impact on their potential to sell (why go through all that, the dream is over).

- household liquidity is a real, real issue. People are living above their means. I did a comprehensive study ... in Oakville, average family income needs to be $160k, or else "Money In" is less than "Money Out" ... and I used pretty optimistic assumpitons like a mortgage of only $250k. Only way people are surviving is by borrowing from their line of credit ... yes, but that will reach a limit right? Nope, not if the house prices keep going up $100k per year. That's the extra income they tap into in order to stay afloat and afford a few luxuries.

What will kill it all ... raising the interest rates, kill the housing market, growth in house prices stops, no more line of credit extensions, can't draw from line, can't make ends meet, have to cut back, put house for sale, supply goes through the roof, housing crashes ... and there's the blood bath.

So, as long as interest rates stay low, and supply isn't addressed, not too much is going to change (particularly in the GTA).

Just my opinion ... feel free to tear it apart.

[trimmer21]

Here's things from my perspective:

- the tax will make foreign buyers think twice, probably look at other provinces ... Quebec?
- the supply will not increase ... in fact, it may go down once the tax kicks in, if people think it will have a negative impact on their potential to sell (why go through all that, the dream is over).

- household liquidity is a real, real issue. People are living above their means. I did a comprehensive study ... in Oakville, average family income needs to be $160k, or else "Money In" is less than "Money Out" ... and I used pretty optimistic assumpitons like a mortgage of only $250k. Only way people are surviving is by borrowing from their line of credit ... yes, but that will reach a limit right? Nope, not if the house prices keep going up $100k per year. That's the extra income they tap into in order to stay afloat and afford a few luxuries.

What will kill it all ... raising the interest rates, kill the housing market, growth in house prices stops, no more line of credit extensions, can't draw from line, can't make ends meet, have to cut back, put house for sale, supply goes through the roof, housing crashes ... and there's the blood bath.

So, as long as interest rates stay low, and supply isn't addressed, not too much is going to change (particularly in the GTA).

Just my opinion ... feel free to tear it apart.

These threads need a "like" button. My mortgage officer (TD Canada Trust) pal has been sounding the alarm bell for a long time,now,but,everyone in real estate don't get it. Sometimes,it makes me wonder if the people that should know better are self-serving enough to shut their brains off.

[JBen]

That doesn't surprise me Mark.
answers?
"Fair" answers?
wtf knows.

Oh and btw what the 800,000 Ontarians without GPs.
The hundreds of thousands of Ontarians already in "Energy Poverty", and those being driven there.
What about the hundreds of thousands without Pensions, and who thanks to exploding taxation, Hydro, Land taxes...(cough cough) are going to end up in the poor house long, long before they end up in the grave,.
And on
and On

Meanwhile, the insane asylum which is truly insane and a"black hole", just keeps motoring along as though theres no tomorrow and money grows on trees.....

Trimmer the agents I know (about a handful do get it) and a bunch of friends who live and work in the GTA get it, and are just as (not sure right word, disgusted, cynical) some don't. Head in the sand oblivious to this that and the other. Actually had one friend when discussing hydro over beers, one guys night say.
"I don't understand why people are upset, I haven't seen much of a change"
Seriously? Where have you been living I asked. Everyone now is finally screaming about it.

Any who, most agents I know, get it and do see it.
"Follow the money"
Politics.