First reports say two are in custody and AK-47's seized. The last I looked,they were unavailable in Canada. Quebec's gun registry worked well,didn't it?
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First reports say two are in custody and AK-47's seized. The last I looked,they were unavailable in Canada. Quebec's gun registry worked well,didn't it?
Your new avatar says it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
Well even if it is AK-47's I would expect (I hope I am wrong):
1) New anti-Islamophobia bill (already in Quebec as bill 59 where you can't criticize Islam)
2) New firearm advisory group (possibly with Cuklier on it, and apparently no firearm advocates like CSSA/NFA) to come down with new recommendations (to use Liberal Youth terms: "Australian Model")
https://www.oodmag.com/community/sho...sory-committee
3) They are already calling it "terrorism", a term the PM and media was unwilling to use quickly before, so I am expecting the attackers to be right-wing haters (any word on that yet?) not one of the other sects of Islam
There's very little info available at the moment. We need to wait before jumping to conclusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosquito
6 were killed according to the police on CBC, they aren't releasing anything about the murderers and seem unwilling to identify it as terrorism (although PM and premier are). 6 men (segregated Mosque) killed and 2 suspects is about all we know. Second killer turned himself in about 40km away.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
They sure like to bring up the temporary travel restrictions Trump put in place. They keep calling it a Muslim ban but ignore the fact Indonesia, Quatar, Saudi Arabia and atleast a dozen more are not on the list and it is a list Obama's gov't created as sources of terrorism.
As to what the gov't will do .... that was what I was alluding to before. It involving firearms, in Quebec and to Muslims ..... should see some interesting comments from Goodale, Oghabra and Trudeau and I am curious to see who else gets press and attention.
I am just glad it wasn't much worse, there are so many ways it could have been alot worse.
All the info hasn't been released. If it's an act of terrorism, where other parties may have helped, or assisted that's an easy call.
At this point, based on info available, it's doubtful this will have any effect on gun control or legislation, as the AK-47 is already prohib, and obviously if it was the firearm used, was brought in through means that no amount of legislation would have prevented.
Thoughts and prayers are with those families affected by this horrible act.
Welcome to the real world - I hope you didn't think that you were going to be free from this type of behavior - the solution - arm yourself
good point. Most LEO and certainly media couldn't properly identify the firearm but AK suits theQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Narrative.
That was my thought as well, given that some NR rifles can be dolled up to look like the AK ( SKS, CZ858, etc). But in the absence of any concrete info, this is what we have to work with. However given the casualty rate, It's debatable, as a rifle capable of FA fire rate in the hands of an untrained shooter might result in those numbers, in the hands of a trained shooter, it cold have been far worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
In this country, that will never happen. I also don't think soccer moms should be packing when shopping at Walmart. From what I have read so far they have arrested 2 suspects. I find it odd they haven't released much info on them yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
I sure hope so, for shooters something that was already prohib would bring to light what we have all been saying, our laws are tight enough, this was illegal to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Hey Joe, I hope all the Muslim men down your way agree with you and arm yourself, it would make you feel really good would it not?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Oh, welcome back, it has been a little quiet here.
If they turn out to be SKS's anybody who owns one best sell it while they can. Wendy and her crew will come after them. Lepine used a mini 14, is there any evidence of any other murders with that weapon since?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
The casualty numbers don't support that narrative, unless some of our already onerous laws were broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
The mini - 14 is a non-restricted in Canada, the AR 15 that is such an evil firearm and restricted has never once been used in a mass shooting in Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
The mini - 14 shooting was the basis for the magazine restriction.
Exactly, but if it was an SKS - D with a 30rd mag or an SKS with the pin removed, making them illegal anyway would not change the perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
That shooter in Ottawa used a 30-30 lever action deer rifle, glad they did not decide it needed to be banned.
I read somewhere one of the shooters actually left and returned into the building twice. That could have been to clear a jammed rifle or replace mags both of which kind of show these guys either were not highly trained or used poor quality rifles. I'm thinking a real AK47 wouldn't jam in a church after firing that many rounds? Aren't they one of the most dependable assault rifles?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Like I said. Info at the moment is sketchy at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
If shooter left, and returned that's hard to determine. Clearing a jam or replacing a mag shouldn't require leaving an active area, and in fact would be counter productive, leaving one shooter alone, but then again.....untrained shooter....
AKs aren't terribly prone to jamming, but highly speculative as to the condition of the firearm being used.
Too many holes and unknowns at this point. We could speculate for hours on what we don't know.
Houses of worship and civilians are always out of bounds and should be in any war or conflict. However terrorism, on either side, is seldom like that. Condolences to the victims, pretty sorry to attack civilians and people worshiping.
Big Picture......... Trudeau should purchase some intelligence and original thought from his neighbor as he apparently can't nor can his administration see past their social justice/green noses.
ISIS is splintering as we speak and has been for months. Look at Mosul, Raqqa, etc. and the sheer number against them and as this happens they will die or splinter. Being made up of foreign fighters, some will stay and some will return home.
Guess were home is? USA? Canada? MOROCCO? Quebec? The US ban and the way it was implemented makes perfect sense to anyone with sense. Only a FOOL like Trudeau and his admin. would WELCOME and encourage people openly and blindly from those countries listed on the temporary ban. Remember ISIS fighters will be trying to return to their country of origin and/or to new countries they see as targets.
Very easy to enter a naive, wrong-headed country under the guise of refugee status, etc.
Current worldwide Immigration policies are divisive to all parties. Proper vetting makes sense, tweeting and pretending to have the moral high ground, being stupid, naive and playing to the world stage gets you Quebec City. And it gets you that about 8 hours after the self righteous trudeau tweet.
Canada needs leadership that thinks beyond the next selfie, the next town hall photo op and beyond the next helicopter ride.
Trudeau...dangerously unready.
Boy I'll tell you something - I wake up ever morning and thank God that the people put Trump into office down here - he recognizes the problem and is doing something about it - he's the kind of guy you need up there - a right wing conservative with the guts to say is like it is - here is the slogan - make Canada great again -
What?Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
More people in the US are killed by toddlers every year than Muslim extremists.
In the US in 2016 there were 476 mass shooting, 476, almost all of them are home grown white Christian males.
The US ban does nothing, it does not even ban anyone from the countries where the 911 hijackers came from. The mass shootings in the US are from US citizens and mainly white males.
You do realize that he is an idiot when it comes to business, if he runs his country like he runs his businesses he will bankrupt you in no time and do it while lining his pocket through the selling out of the US to other countries, like he has done for years, look it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
I ask again, you say that the citizens need to arm themselves, how do you feel about the same people who were attacked here in Canada arming themselves in the US. What I mean is that the 3.3 Million US citizens in the US who follow Islam, how do you feel about all of them building up a cache of semi and full auto firearms to protect themselves from radicals and a corrupt government?
You said it it 2 words "Arm Yourselves"
The US temporary ban is based on threat assessment tied to what is currently happening in the M.E.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Once again, real slow...... as ISIS is continuously cornered and eradicated they will either die or splinter and disperse. When they do they will attempt to flee and generally attempt to return home or to a naive, overly muslim sympathetic country that is begging for refugees such as the tweet trudeau's pandering indicated. At least until the attack in Quebec showed how wrong his tweet was.
It is simply intelligence based prudence to intelligently screen foreign arrivals and refugees/immigrants rather than tweet like a morally superior idiot.
It has nothing to do with evidence, many of the countries linked to terrorism are also linked economically to the US so therefore they do not get any ban, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, Pakistan, they all have just as many or more links to terrorist groups as all the rest but they have no ban.Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
It is all about business and drumming out racist sentiment, it is BS.
If you want evidence based bans you need to ban all US born Christians as they kill way more people per person than Islamic terrorists born outside the US.
I am reminded of a note I saw on one or two math test in my life "Show your work"
We didn't list Saudi based on threat assessment and the fact that their intel community is becoming better AND they cooperate with us with intel on terrorist activities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Besides a sovereign country has EVERY RIGHT to evaluate and or deny access at any moment in time AND for any length of time to the US. It has been this way since 1952 or in some parts of Title 8 sec 1182 since 1990.
Show "your" work, not emotion.
There are few details so far and the implications are going to be big I think. I look at the reaction, it is in Canada but Justin is already jumping up and down screaming. I think back of the 6 Canadians killed by confirmed terrorists on humanitarian trip and then he went to a Mosque to take selfies ... so I expect a Canada wide version of Quebec's bill that bans criticism of Islam, firearm changes and who knows what else this ideologue (or convert as some suggest) will do. The RCMP are not calling it a terrorist attack but our Liberal ideologues are .... why is he jumping to conclusions?
http://globalnews.ca/news/2458662/si...-burkina-faso/
The list of countries is something that the Obama gov't created and people tend to ignore ISIL threats, the Canadian's on their kill list the Khadr's and the others like these....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle19636668/
Canadian's "indiscriminately targeted" by the genocidal ISIL members ....
http://globalnews.ca/video/1713593/c...a-in-new-video
Most Muslims are no problem and most of the Islamic majority countries are not covered on the travel ban, it is the media and the the small number that will be the problem and we have them here, here are some notes I took on what the one speaker has said.
Reflections on Islam May 22/2016 on Canadian Vision TV Ezz E. Gad
"Islam must not be polluted with things like democracy, socialism, capitalism.... "
another time he talked about a civilized society has a common set of legal values and a goal and that includes spread of value system. He went on to point out that Secular Religions = democracy, Communism... (YES HE SAID democracy was a type of religion.)
"Anyone adding these other religions to Islam will burn in hell unless they repent and purify their faith. Islam is the only way and absolutely pure"
or the big group out of the US...
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."
-Omar Ahmad, Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)
Extreme vetting that they are talking about (and Liberals seem to be against... maybe Omar Alghabra has some something to do with it??) is the way of getting rid of atleast some of that small minority but the worst will be the radicalized converts like the two above but without a police state there isn't alot that can be done. Extreme vetting on Saudi Arabia would have been required for 9/11 Trade towers attack so no one knows but it is better than doing nothing I think.
Pulse Nightclub shooting - June 2016 - Shooter born in North Hyde Park, New York, USQuote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
San Bernadino shooting - Dec 2015 - Shooter born in Chicago, Illinois, US
Sandy Hook shooting - Dec 2012 - Shooter born in Exeter, New Hamshire, US
Aurora Movie Theater shooting - July 2012 - Shooter born in San Diego, California, US
Charleston church shooting - June 2015 - Shooter born in Columbia, South Carolina, US
Fort Hood shooting - Nov 2009 - Shooter born in Arlington County, Virginia, US
You cannot say that the US terrorism is an immigration issue or a religious or a ethnicity issue if you look at the evidence.
Sure, ban whom ever you want but say it is because you are a racist, not because you are protecting American lives.
Remember, more people were shot last year in the US by toddlers than by immigrant terrorists.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.d50231b5c4ac
A white caucasian , Christian, etc. immigrant coming from the USA has to turn over all emails, associated/pertinent photos, police investigation record, fingerprints, and similar evidence to enter the immigration process.
It should be at least that equal and even require more strict vetting for all coming from terrorist countries into the WEST. Any less is irresponsible and naive. Partnering with Soros isn't a good immigration policy.
What? Not even the topic we are discussing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
We are discussing a current temporary ban on people arriving from 7 Obama picked terrorist countries that are based on current intelligence reports AND the state of ISIS.
Don't try to twist it into your racial prejudicies.
Here is the text that appears to be pertinent to the discussion.
(f) Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate. Whenever the Attorney General finds that a commercial airline has failed to comply with regulations of the Attorney General relating to requirements of airlines for the detection of fraudulent documents used by passengers traveling to the United States (including the training of personnel in such detection), the Attorney General may suspend the entry of some or all aliens transported to the United States by such airline.
Seems some in the Media are actually awake....
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/wo...icuous-silence
From the leaders of Muslim nations not affected by Trump’s travel ban conspicuous silence
Even the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, a group of 57 nations that considers itself the collective voice of the Muslim world, kept quiet
Who is hijacking the thread - the discussion is all connected with the events that happened -
Appears a billion dollars doesn't buy much reporting, at least from the CBC.Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
You're first two posts lent nothing to the discussion of the event at hand. "Welcome to the real world", and "thank god for Trump" are both overreaching and not relevant at all. Particularly in the absence of any details. Skypilot took that discussion much further, but he admitted his folly. You on the other hand appear to be the proverbial fart in a windstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePa
Your first and only reaction to this was "arm yourselves"....really? Just the kind of jacked up, knee jerk reaction that gives you yanks an bad name up here....most of us prefer to have all the facts before we jump off the cliff....
x2. Whenever something bad happens JoePa's "goto" argument is <old prospector voice> "Git Yer Guns" or "This is the Demicrats fault" or "Back in my day was so much better because......." . It is an old drum which he really needs to retire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
My turn.......
OK guys.
Your splinter discussion could be hived off into another thread, thanks Bluebulldog and Dythbringer for effectively hijacking things.
Hahaaha....yeah, but we're back on track now..Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
I await with baited breath the "spin" the MSM puts on this,especially,if it doesn't fit with their editorial policy.
One comment agreeing with Bluebulldog's post does not a hijacking make. But good try.Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
PM "Selfie" released a statement earlier today, while data was fluid, and not certain. Instantly saying that it was a "terrorist attack".
Yet 2 years ago when Parliament Hill had the shooter, he refused to say the word "terrorist" in his statement.
Not sure what's more sickening, the act itself, or the political pandering exhibited by our leadership.
I agree that they know and don't want to do anything which may jeopardize the case. Probably want to get the go ahead from the Crown Attorney before making anything public record in the media.Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
Both are infinitely nauseating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
I agree that I do not like him or how he deals with things but if anything could be a terrorist attack this would be one. The guy on the hill was a wannabe, he shot one man and shot at others but the tone of the day ended with him for the most part, I feel like the targeted attack on a group of people like this one is more deserving of the word. I do think that the guy in Quebec that sat in his car and waiting to run down the military guys coming out of work was more deserving of the word then the idiot on the hill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Anyway, semantics.
The most disturbing part is the almost instantaneous push by closet racists to jump out into the mainstream with the movement down south, parallels the middle eastern anti-west movement and scares the crap out of me, we do not need this from any side.
With the exception that the parliament hill shooter was radicalized, and Muslim. He had know associations with other radical and terrorist organizations online.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Last night's shooter for all appearances was white, and non-muslim. What would the motivations be? With the possible exception of anger at a province that seems to pander to certain special interest groups. What if the recent shooter simply has mental illness?
My point is that our PM seems to be very quick to use the word where it might not be applicable, but politically convenient, since he seems to have a special relationship with those of the Muslim faith ( see Aga Khan), yet where evidence can clearly show that it was an attack motivated by Radical Islamic ideology, he refuses to use the word.
I think they dispelled that he actually had radical ties, he had been booted out of a few mosques though because he was nuts and he was actually talked to by the police about that due to his radical views being shared by the Imam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Ya, they just released the name, white guy, said to have views linked to France's ultra right.
Thank you Fox, well said. The statistics seem to confirm that Americans have far more to fear from each other than Islamic extremists. With that said, I'm not sure how many Americans understand that or care to. And I'm no lefty but I always prefer to base things on facts and truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
So you advocate for the US not having a travel ban and better vetting of people coming to the US? Which was the general referenced topic Fox and I were having which you just referenced.Quote:
Originally Posted by 73hunter
I remember two "refugees" coming to America and settling in Bowling Green Kentucky in 2009. One of those, Ramadan Alwan's fingerprints were found on a cordless phone base wired to a roadside IED in Bayji Iraq that we dug up in 2005.
He came in under refugee asylum because he claimed he feared persecution back home.
If I remember, that caused a 6 month US ban until vetting was tightened.
Many M.E. countries have governments that promote terrorism and lie and/or provide false references to people attempting to enter the US or have those governments have no worthwhile records to provide.
In addition, conditions in the M.E. are fluid and threat levels change. What a toddler or even a lone wolf terrorist does inside the US or has done in the US has absolutely nothing of relevance to do with a sovereign nation enacting a travel ban to stop terrorist entry.
Canada's leadership should look at the US and take advantage of that past experience, whether good or bad and prosper from it rather than make a hypocritical display of virtue and take selfies.
Anyway have any comment about the actual hate crime/terrorist act in Quebec City?
Well SkyPilot let me say...
I do support the idea that America is owned by Americans, period. And if a majority of Americans want a ban I guess it's their right to do.
But facts will remain facts and the ones that Fox posted earlier about the origin of the recent US mass shooting perpetrators speak for themselves. Facts seem to matter less everywhere we look these days.
On Quebec, not much to be said that hasn't already, except perhaps "HANG him HIGH"
To throw this out there. how much do you think do Quebec's language laws lend to fanning these racial fires? Remember the "Ethnic Vote" supposedly cost Leveque the referendum.
As an true outsider with zero background in anything Quebec and based only on visits with numerous random acquaintances there....
The words that comes to mind as I replay previous conversations, is summed up as their view is government forced encroachment.
They seem to feel their heritage(language, religion, status and majority)is being threatened. Those are my words describing what I hear them telling me.
They were however somewhat cautious and reserved with me as an anglophone (I guess) until they realized I was American and then very friendly and open.(maybe they saw me as a temporary novelty)
Anyway, they are not unlike friends in La. If they like you or something they like you or that thing, if not they are somewhat unmovable.
They seemed fiercely independent, loyal to themselves and I don't see that as bad in the context of "Canadianism."
So, it appears to me to be that they feel further marginalized with another special interest group being forced into their "world."
One in particular was particularly proud to be Canadian and would be considered "right wing" although I suspect he was no Conservative and likely not even a liberal voter.
No doubt there is resentment on several topics in Quebec.
I'm not buying that this was a "terrorist" attack. I'm particularly concerned that politicians and the media were so quick to jump all over this without any reliable information calling it such. What started out being reported as a full-blown terrorist attack by two gunmen with full-auto weapons has disintegrated into one attack by a home-grown whack job taking advantage of vulnerable,kind,decent people when they would least expect something like this to happen to them. It leaves a sick feeling in the pit of one's stomach that society has collapsed into such despicable acts by the deranged. No amount of gun control laws will ever stop these attacks from happening because the mentally ill and the criminal element simply ignore them. People with a shred of intelligence already know that....or they should.
Why would this not be considered a terrorist act? It was a home grown terrorist, no different than any other terrorist.Quote:
Originally Posted by trimmer21
The Oklahoma City bombing was a terrorist act was it not? That one was just a white dude pissed off at the government, still a terrorist.
As you are all informed and intelligent people I don't think we can argue whether this was a terrorist attack until we come to an agreement on the definition of terrorist attack.
I thing we can all agree that it was a hate crime.
What boxes do you think need to be ticked in order for something to qualify as a terrorist attack?
Edit:
Just to make it a little more complicated; can someone who does not qualify as a "Terrorist" still commit an act of terror? (in the same way that anyone can provide physical therapy but only those qualified can claim to be Physiotherapists)
It sounds on the surface more like a hate crime or at the minimum premeditated murder.
It would not be unusual for charges to be "upgraded" to reflect terrorism based on the progression of the investigation, meaning forensics, suspect background checks/reviews, motive and even psychological evaluations.
However, early on(as officials look at the easier evidence to determine) it seems more hate crime than an act of codified terror.(which is more difficult to determine benchmarked against the written text/definition of terrorism)
I define a terrorist,in it's purest sense,as a foreign combatant or enemy agent that enters a country to specifically bring death and destruction to it's residents to advance a "cause" to a political end ie: the 9/11 hijackers. Can there be home-grown terrorists? I believe in rare circumstances like Oklahoma City,yes. To label every incident of mass murder a terrorist attack as opposed to the acts of miscreant village idiots is a total misnomer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugger
The short answer Rugger is yes it can be an act of terror and not be terrorism. There is a difference in the political term terrorism and what law text tries to spell out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugger
Generally there are 3 components ex. international terrorism, domestic terrorism and transnational terrorism. With that in the background, most governments attempt to codify the act with those things in mind along with any religious, political and ideological perspective.
These things(mentioned above) are what can make an official charge of terrorism difficult to prosecute unless there is clear evidence via background investigation(he was a member of a terrorist group), and how the final act was supported via the obtaining of weapons, any accomplices, prior actions and interviews with him and all his contacts.
I think it works backwards, committing the act of terror makes them a terrorist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugger
I don't see how they have to be foreign to be a terrorist, ask black Americans if the KKK were terrorists of not or if the IRA were terrorists to the British occupiers or the Israelis/Palestinians to the other side.
In reality, and based on the facts of the evidence, it may very well meet the contextualized definition of your Criminal Code wrt terrorism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
However that doesn't automatically mean any or every murder or mass murder is for example, terrorism, an act of war, hate crime and so forth.
So by your definition of terrorism, a strike on an enemy which induces terror among the enemy is an act of terrorism and makes the people that did the attack terrorists...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Just to throw a couple hand fulls of mud in to the water to cloud it even more...Two examples one question..
1) A member of the French Resistence shoots a german solder...
2) A member of ths French Resistence shoots a german civilian...
Which one is a terrorist act?
It is all perspective, if you are the German army both, if you are a German civilian and a sympathizer to the German army both, if you are a German civilian and not a sympathizer to the German army then only #2. If you are the French Resistance then neither, if you are the Allied army, probably neither, if you are an outsider civilian probably #2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
There is no cut and dry answer. Do we consider someone walking into a school terrorism, I think you would call that a mass shooting. If you consider someone walking into that same school and shooting it up with an agenda of anti-government, race based belief or if that school was targeted due to a religious, political or race based reasons then I would say it was terrorism. That being said sympathizers of that shooter would not call that terrorism but rather a war that they are fighting.
If you feel that this guy was justified in their actions due to religious fear and hatred towards Muslims then I do not think you would call it terrorism but if you believe this man targeted this Mosque for the sole reason that they were there and should be removed and you think that this is a problem then I do not see how you can say this was not terrorism.
If this was a Muslim man attacking a Catholic church nobody here would be saying anything other than terrorism, even if the man was born in a Canadian suburb.
Definition of terrorism as per our Department of Justice:
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/c...rr09_6/p3.html
"In Canada, section 83.01 of the Criminal Code[1] defines terrorism as an act committed "in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause" with the intention of intimidating the public "…with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act." Activities recognized as criminal within this context include death and bodily harm with the use of violence; endangering a person’s life; risks posed to the health and safety of the public; significant property damage; and interference or disruption of essential services, facilities or systems."
Thanks C.
Looks like the text spells out textually what all criminal law generally spells out, intent and/or liability.
As posted before, in this Quebec case, it requires evidence of terrorist intent which is not necessarily quick and easy to prove with only physical crime scene evidence, it requires looking into the suspect's background and past. Things like phone records, contacts, social media and the investigation generally seeks to find if there is a motive towards terrorism as defined in the codified text.
That is loosely why it is likely listed as murder charges at this moment in time. That is pretty much obvious at this point and may change to reflect a more severe penalty when and if the terrorism component is found and then ultimately proven.
The overall process and task of the investigation/charge would be no different in the example posted wrt the "Muslim man attacking a Catholic Church."
Most in his case say there is no signs of violence but I suspect that will change over time, some will "find" things that weren't actually there when asked by the press. I had already been wondering about a few things about this and it is nice to see theRebel actually has some of the same questions.
The killer, the runaway witness and one prof all from Laval University, why did they keep saying 2 shooters, even the witnesses? Did he go out and come back in confusing some of the witnesses?? He had Layton and the NDP (seems to be the only Canadian links they mentioned so far on his face book) but the keep only mentioning Trump ...
http://www.therebel.media/what_they_..._mosque_attack
Here he is portrayed as extreme right wing, hunter and gun nut...
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...eliefs-sources
This one leaves out the NDP and Layton too..
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...re-bissonnette
While the Toronto Star (not known for it's reliability) does list his likes as including the NDP and Layton and Marine Lepen...
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...-shooting.html
"Among the pages he “liked” were those of U.S. President Donald Trump, far-right French politician Marine Le Pen, the federal NDP and former NDP leader Jack Layton.He also “liked” several different video games, chess clubs, musicians and organizations at Laval University."
I think until the trial is done and there are clear statements of motive etc. alot of these reporters are just parroting something someone else said or making it up.
P.S.
Brian Lilley actually reads the list of this guys Facebook page likes from the archive, including Quebecois politicians and party, Richard Dawkins,Feminist movement at Laval, some band called Weezer, Lepen, Trump, sprite, Doom, Doritos, Christopher Hitchens and the list goes on... talks about journalism laziness. He even talks about how PM office is sending letters to Fox (only Fox it seems, not other media) about an old twitter post about the second suspect being from Morocco.
https://www.facebook.com/580CFRA/vid...4399649607831/
I too have noticed and heard some odd things that trouble me in this case so far. I attribute it to language/interpretation, poor press reporting and the fact countries do investigations and even press releases differently.
By that definition. One Country bombing another to keep the second country from bombing it would in fact be an act of terrorism under the criminal code. One government is trying to get the second country to refain from bombing the first country.Quote:
Originally Posted by impact
Sorry Fox but the answer is VERY cut and dry. BOTH are/where acts of war and would never be terrorism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
what if police officers surround a house and shoot out the street lights with a high powered pellet gun, and they also shoot out the tires on a potential get away car, is that terrorism? lol...
The shooter was obviously mentally deranged. Healthy people don't massacre those they don't like in the Western world. In the Middle East they do but not here. Now, just wait for Cuckier's comittee to get thier teeth into this. The shooter was a legal gun owner who liked to hunt. Clearly the laws of the land can't predict or prevent madmen from doing this stuff so the comittee will push for draconian laws and all out bans I bet. Wendy Cukier and her followers will absolutely dance on the graves of these poor victims.
According to the code....you could say yesQuote:
Originally Posted by Deer Wrastler
"....significant property damage; and interference or disruption of essential services, facilities or systems."
Acts of war in the eyes of the allies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowwalker
In the eyes of the IRA bombers the bombings are an act of war, but in the eyes of the British it is an act of terrorism.
Timothy McVeigh's bombing of the Oklahoma city building was an act of war in his eyes, an act of terrorism to the US.
Not even close to cut and dry.
You have so many strawmen there I hope your not a smoker...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Both allied and Axis define the actions of the resistance as acts of war.
In the IRA the bombings are acts of resistance and the English see them as murders.
When so one say the sky is blue..you telling them that it is not blue on mars does not change the fact that the sky is blue.
Latest media update...."He didn't shout, he didn't speak," Akjour told CBC. "He shot and then he left."
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada...cid=spartanntp
According to media Akjour fled as the shooting started and was shot in the shoulder as he fled.
Still no answer as to the killer's motive, the reason it took 12 hours to decide the 2nd person wasn't a shooter (opposite of witnesses)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwC7...&feature=share
False flag??? Almost don't know what to believe anymore.
what happened to the story of the two people who where reported to have entered wearing ski masks and shouting Allah Akbar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter John
When it comes to the press,believe nothing of what you hear and half of what you see and you'll have a pretty good handle on what's really happening.LOL
And the RCMP commissioner said he was unfamiliar w/ that gun. As friend that hunts w/ us said, "Using a 94 you knew it was going to be a suicide mission".Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Didn't he jump all over Harper when the T word was used?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebulldog
Maybe he was sick of the daily on all three networks & 2 news channels (English) on the "First time a Syrian family did this" and "First time a Syrian family does that" stories. Enough already!Quote:
Originally Posted by terrym
I remember when the Vietnamese "boat people" arrived. They got a GI navy blue parka & sent on their way. The only media coverage I ever heard afterwards was when a former ARVN general Dan Vang Tran(?) seems to ring a bell, was charged in Montreal w/ drug smuggling. There was no daily reports of what these people were doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by revrnd
He did... and:
He wouldn't call female genital mutilation, child marriage and other barbaric practices as barbaric
He went to a Mosque a day or two after 6 Christians helping to build a school were killed by Muslim terrorists in Africa and did selfies and his almost non-reaction to 2 killed in the Philippines.
He has tons of pictures of praying in Mosques (all segregated) ... anyone got a picture of him in a Church?? Some even seem to show him repeating the Islamic declaration of faith (Shahada?), makes you wonder if it is real or pandering (which any devout Muslim should find insulting)
He did not call it genocide (even when UN, EU and USA did) in regards to the Genocide of Christians and Yazidi in Syria etc.
He wouldn't give Christians and other minority refugees preference.
His relationship with Obama (who one of his last acts was to try and send $221M to the Palestinians.) and anti-Israel attitude.
His party's choice to add 50% to immigration and double the refugees if they can (200,000 to 300,000 and 20,000 to 40 or 50,000 depending on who is blabbing.) mostly from Syria etc. .... even after threats by those like John Maguire and Andre Poulin.
I can go on about his praise for Islam in tweets and more but many can be easily attributed to ignorance and his own vanity... oh and let us not forget there now is talking about an Islamophobia law so prevent criticism.
His choices are either the most pathetic pandering you will ever see or idiocy??? I mean he put someone like Omar Alghabra (supporter of Hamas) and Maryam Monsef (lied on immigration, there is even a video showing Justin saying liars should loose citizenship) in positions of power and he even moved the screwup Maryam into another portfolio before killing election reform.
Then there is the media and police reaction to this shooting ... Islam his ideology has nothing to do with a shooting, this guy they declare him a right wing (even though he liked Layton and the NDP on his FB too) and blame the ideology etc. The PM's office going on a rant about Fox news saying two instead of 1 ... then there is the hostility that Faith Goldy is getting reporting this and all the black box on motive, the PMO and media reaction etc.!
http://www.therebel.media/faith_goldy_february_02_2017
Put this MSM and Liberal spin on a hook at you have something maybe even too stinky for a catfish bait.
You just summed it up,perfectly,with that sentence. That's all Liberals ever do.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosquito
Finally someone (Coyne on the CBC Thursday night) called her what she is "incompetent". Her only qualification for Cabinet is her whole "story" fits the Liberal's narrative that Canada is a "diverse and inclusive" country. Her resume, if you want to call it that is pretty thin:Quote:
Originally Posted by mosquito
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/maryam-monsef-44733655
She is a prime example of what happens when people blindly vote. The CPC could've run the reincarnation of Winston Churchill & she still would've won (and yes I know he didn't do all that well in the post-WWII era)
Unfortunately she's my MP & I hope like heck that she loses in 2019. There is no way on earth that a person like her w/ her limited skillset/work experience should be eligible for a nice pension.
Rant off and back to the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by revrnd
Rex has pointing out her incompetence (not suited to be Grade 3 teacher, sell vacuums ).....
in his words , the right minister to blow up the promise on the voting system... then he bailed her out.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/rex-m...rvey-1.3889002
Back to the topic... I saw an interesting one yesterday.... the second person ... is actually an accomplice but didn't do any shooting and is doing a plea bargain. Makes some sense since there are so many that said there were 2 masked men and they were shouting and now it is 1 person ......:confused::confused:
This shooting could keep conspiracy nuts spinning for a week on the secrecy, flip flops, changing testimonies, interference from the PMO ..... I don't trust CBC anymore even the slightest (other than maybe Rex) to not bow to the political agenda so I hope theRebel keeps on it and isn't silenced in some Islamophobia charge or judges no publishing ruling.
I agree some things are not adding up, however forensic physical evidence should paint a clear picture of what transpired if done properly.
Just based on typical investigations, it was EXTREMELY odd that the physical crime scene investigation was over in about 12 hours, if I remember correctly, and then the mosque reopened.
That is extraordinary forensic work for a crime scene with dozens of people, multiple fatalities and multiple injured.
I suppose a police dept. could be better than World Class on their evidence gathering, bullet paths and have every bullet accounted for, located and logged, and victims locations in short order.
Then again, I suppose if you have a cooperative 2nd shooter, you can get by with needing/doing much less real investigation.
I suspect it runs much deeper. I question if the Moroccan may be a previous or present confidential informer?
It is just difficult for me to rationalize how a previous target could misidentify a cop after the shooting, become a squirter, get thru responding police or their perimeter and then from a safe distance away call cops to come get him.
He was detained for 12 hours or so. How long does it take to get the mosque members to validate his story of being in the mosque?
What happened to the reports of two attackers in ski masks shouting Allah Akbar?
Just doesn't make sense based on reports. What the police said on camera and what is being reported just doesn't jive.
Speaking of cameras where is the video footage? That mosque has surveillance cameras installed. I don't recall anyone requesting that the footage be made public even if edited to take out some graphic scenes. Strange!Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot
http://heavy.com/news/2017/01/quebec...juries-deaths/
"After a previous hate crime incident at the mosque, also called Grande Mosque de Québec, its leaders said they had several CCTV cameras on the building. It is not clear if the video shows the shooting or the suspects."
A witness reports in the plural "they"
“It seemed to me that they had a Quebecois accent. They started to fire, and (while) they shot they yelled, ‘Allahu akbar!’ The bullets hit people that were praying. People who were praying lost their lives. A bullet passed right over my head,” said the witness, who asked not to be named. “There were even kids. There was even a three-year-old who was with his father.”
Both went to the same school. A coincidence that Khadir was there at the mosque as well?
Two suspects, Alexandre Bissonnette and Mohamed Khadir, were taken into custody after the shooting, police told reporters at the scene.
Khadir was later cleared Monday and released.
Alexandre Bissonnette, 27, is a native of Quebec.
"A source told Radio-Canada both Bissonnette and Khadir are students at Université Laval, a French-language, public college in Quebec City. There are about 28,500 undergraduate students and 8,500 graduate students attending the school.
It is not known if the two men know each other.
I believe I read about a FOI request for camera video being submitted although it won't do any good with an open investigation.
I saw similar on a violent store robbery where the store owner(whom I knew) was murdered with a 44 mag. The murderer disappeared and nobody in the dept would talk about it, it just sort of fizzled and disappeared.
I pitched a b and was finally and reluctantly told to drop the inquiry. The murderer was under the Fed. witness protection and relocation program. Big guns swooped in and shut everything down like it never happened, scooped up their pile and moved him elsewhere.
This mosque shooting has that same smell of deceit, protection and cover up, down to turdo asking one news org. to remove the Moroccan reference.
Reminds me of the current ServPro tv commercial........."Like it never happened"
Why is it that supposedly intelligent people in this country can't believe something like this can happen in Canada? Didn't Pickton, Bernardo, Olsen & Lepine happen in Canada?
To listen to these people the US is the only country w/ whack jobs.
On Friday JT took time out of his "busy" schedule to go to New Brunswick.
In the future I wonder wht his response will be should something tragic like a school bus full of kids is in an accident? Once you set a precedent you have to follow it. Then yesterday there was a march in Quebec to remember the shootings a week later. How long is this going to go on? It'll be as bad as every Dec' 6 until the day I pass.
I am sure glad theRebel is covering this, no word on terror charges and motive.
http://www.therebel.media/update_que..._attack_motive
and a look at the person charged over a Tweet.... and sent for a psychological test at a mental hospital...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ1XvTwmiW4
and new Islamophobia bill and the implications of that little nightmare, apparently Bridgett Bardot has been charged 4 times for criticism of Islam's treatment of animals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2LK4Tlo7eM
TheRebel's video channel is worth keeping an eye on, some like Menzies talking about the British Medical Assoc. new communications guide will both make you laugh .... and not want to go to a doctor in the UK.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGy...ZzT3ZEg/videos
I'm not that concerned about the request to be seen by a psychosocial care worker, in this case a criminologist, before the bail hearing, but the article at VICE regarding his tweets is disconcerting.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosquito
https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/t...-speech-arrest
Then again, the first tweet by Hermit Spirit is probably what got him in hot water.
I see no hate speech from his tweets, if those are his, just the one threat.
I question why the murder weapon(s) have not been mentioned publically.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosquito
Thought Police......Janis Joplin was correct...freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose?
Canadian Muslim leaders ask for national day of remembrance Jan. 29
Muslim leaders want governments to create plan to combat systemic racism, Islamophobia
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...n-29-1.3972020
Any criticism of Islam or Sharia or even examination of the Qu'ran and their prophet will soon **************************** CENSORED ************************************************ writer of this post is currently waiting for examination by Prof. Crane at Arkham ************************************************** ****************
Every day that passes causes the stink from this to get stronger. Sorry, but none of this passes the smell test and I believe the misinformation is deliberate and calculated. Strange thing it is that no media outlets seem to be digging deeper into this story, weapons used? Motive? 2ND suspect.?. Almost like it never happened. None of this makes any sense.
The QC mosque investigation fiasco smells like the Muhammed cartoon contest outside Dallas(Garland )Texas in 2015.
We had an U/C FBI agent who was working on terrorist cases being caught suspiciously close(like in feet) when
the two terrorist got out of the car and began shooting.
Still no explanation on what he was doing there and why he didn't stop it since HE WAS IN CONTACT WITH ONE OF THE TERRORIST GUNMEN JUST DAYS BEFORE THE ATTACK AND IN A SOCIAL MEDIA EXCHANGE TOLD THE GUMAN TO "TEAR UP TEXAS." Alas, both gunmen were killed at the scene and yet the FBI STILL hasn't explained the proximity of their U/C agent nor why he didn't stop it but instead saw them get out of vehicle and he drove on by.